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Gun Control in England: Consequences

 
 
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2005 07:18 pm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1326375/posts

Quote:

There's only one way to protect ourselves - and here's the proof
Daily Telegraph (UK) Online ^ | 1/23/2005 | Richard Munday


Today, 96 years ago, London was rocked by a terrorist outrage. Two Latvian anarchists, who had crossed the Channel after trying to blow up the president of France, attempted an armed wages robbery in Tottenham. Foiled at the outset when the intended victims fought back, the anarchists attempted to shoot their way out.

A dramatic pursuit ensued involving horses and carts, bicycles, cars and a hijacked tram. The fleeing anarchists fired some 400 shots, leaving a policeman and a child dead, and some two dozen other casualties, before they were ultimately brought to bay. They had been chased by an extraordinary posse of policemen and local people, armed and unarmed. Along the way, the police (whose gun cupboard had been locked, and the key mislaid) had borrowed at least four pistols from passers-by in the street, while other armed citizens joined the chase in person.

Today, when we are inured to the idea of armed robbery and drive-by shootings, the aspect of the "Tottenham Outrage" that is most likely to shock is the fact that so many ordinary members of the public at that time should have been carrying guns in the street. Bombarded with headlines about an emergent "gun culture" in Britain now, we are apt to forget that the real novelty is the notion that the general populace in this country should be disarmed.

In a material sense, Britain today has much less of a "gun culture" than at any time in its recent history. A century ago, the possession and carrying of firearms was perfectly normal here. Firearms were sold without licence in gunshops and ironmongers in virtually every town in the country, and grand department stores such as Selfridge's even offered customers an in-house range. The market was not just for sporting guns: there was a thriving domestic industry producing pocket pistols and revolvers, and an extensive import trade in the cheap handguns that today would be called "Saturday Night Specials". Conan Doyle's Dr Watson, dropping a revolver in his pocket before going out about town, illustrates a real commonplace of that time. Beatrix Potter's journal records a discussion at a small country hotel in Yorkshire, where it turned out that only one of the eight or nine guests was not carrying a revolver.

We should not fool ourselves, however, that such things were possible then because society was more peaceful. Those years were ones of much more social and political turbulence than our own: with violent and incendiary suffrage protests, massive industrial strikes where the Army was called in and people were killed, where there was the menace of a revolutionary General Strike, and where the country was riven by the imminent prospect of a civil war in Ireland. It was in such a society that, as late as 1914, the right even of an Irishman to carry a loaded revolver in the streets was upheld in the courts (Rex v. Smith, KB 1914) as a manifestation simply of the guarantees provided by our Bill of Rights.

In such troubled times, why did the commonplace carrying of firearms not result in mayhem? How could it be that in the years before the First World War, armed crime in London amounted to less than 2 per cent of what we see today? One answer that might have been taken as self-evident then, but which has become political anathema now, is that the prevalence of firearms had a stabilising influence and a deterrent effect upon crime. Such deterrent potential was indeed acknowledged in part in Britain's first Firearms Act, which was introduced as an emergency measure in response to fears of a Bolshevik upheaval in 1920. Home Office guidance on the implementation of the Act recognised "good reason for having a revolver if a person lives in a solitary house, where protection from thieves and burglars is essential". The Home Office issued more restrictive guidance in 1937, but it was only in 1946 that the new Labour Home Secretary announced that self-defence would no longer generally be accepted as a good reason for acquiring a pistol (and as late as 1951 this reason was still being proffered in three-quarters of all applications for pistol licences, and upheld in the courts). Between 1946 and 1951, we might note, armed robbery, the most significant index of serious armed crime, averaged under two dozen incidents a year in London; today, that number is exceeded every week.

The Sunday Telegraph's Right to Fight Back campaign is both welcome and a necessity. However, an abstract right that leaves the weaker members of society - particularly the elderly - without the means to defend themselves, has only a token value. As the 19th-century jurist James Paterson remarked in his Commentaries on the Liberty of the Subject and the Laws of England Relating to the Security of the Person: "In all countries where personal freedom is valued, however much each individual may rely on legal redress, the right of each to carry arms - and these the best and the sharpest - for his own protection in case of extremity, is a right of nature indelible and irrepressible, and the more it is sought to be repressed the more it will recur."

Restrictive "gun control" in Britain is a recent experiment, in which the progressive "toughening" of the regulation of legal gun ownership has been followed by an increasingly dramatic rise in violent armed crime. Eighty-four years after the legal availability of pistols was restricted to Firearm Certificate holders, and seven years after their private possession was generally prohibited, they still figure in 58 per cent of armed crimes. Home Office evidence to the Dunblane Inquiry prior to the handgun ban indicated that there was an annual average of just two incidents in which licensed pistols appeared in crime. If, as the Home Office still asserts, "there are links between firearms licensing and armed crime", the past century of Britain's experience has shown the link to be a sharply negative one.

If Britain was a safer country without our present system of denying firearms to the law-abiding, is deregulation an option? That is precisely the course that has been pursued, with conspicuous success in combating violent crime, in the United States.

For a long time it has been possible to draw a map of the United States showing the inverse relationship between liberal gun laws and violent crime. At one end of the scale are the "murder capitals" of Washington, Chicago and New York, with their gun bans (New York City has had a theoretical general prohibition of handguns since 1911); at the other extreme, the state of Vermont, without gun laws, and with the lowest rate of violent crime in the Union (a 13th that of Britain). From the late Eighties, however, the relative proportions on the map have changed radically. Prior to that time it was illegal in much of the United States to bear arms away from the home or workplace, but Florida set a new legislative trend in 1987, with the introduction of "right-to-carry" permits for concealed firearms.

Issue of the new permits to law-abiding citizens was non-discretionary, and of course aroused a furore among gun control advocates, who predicted that blood would flow in the streets. The prediction proved false; Florida's homicide rate dropped, and firearms abuse by permit holders was virtually non-existent. State after state followed Florida's suit, and mandatory right-to-carry policies are now in place in 35 of the United States.

In a nationwide survey of the impact of the legislation, John Lott and David Mustard of the University of Chicago found that by 1992, right-to-carry states had already seen an 8 per cent reduction in murders, 7 per cent reduction in aggravated assaults, and 5 per cent reduction in rapes. Extrapolating from the 10 states that had then implemented the policy, Lott and Mustard calculated that had right-to-carry legislation been nationwide, an annual average of some 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes and more than 60,000 aggravated assaults might have been averted. The survey has lent further support to the research of Professor Kleck, of Florida State University, who found that firearms in America serve to deter crime at least three times as often as they appear in its commission.

Over the last 25 years the number of firearms in private hands in the United States has more than doubled. At the same time the violent crime rate has dropped dramatically, with the significant downswing following the spread of right-to-carry legislation. The US Bureau of Justice observes that "firearms-related crime has plummeted since 1993", and it has declined also as a proportion of overall violent offences. Violent crime in total has declined so much since 1994 that it has now reached, the bureau states, "the lowest level ever recorded". While American "gun culture" is still regularly the sensational subject of media demonisation in Britain, the grim fact is that in this country we now suffer three times the level of violent crime committed in the United States.

Today, on this anniversary of the "Tottenham Outrage", it is appropriate that we reflect upon how the objects of outrage in Britain have changed within a lifetime. If we now find the notion of an armed citizenry anathema, what might the Londoners of 1909 have made of our own violent, disarmed society?

•Richard Munday is the author of Most Armed & Most Free? and co-author of Guns & Violence: The Debate Before Lord Cullen
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Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 03:27 am
Watch out gunga, the lefties will call PETA on you for killing their sacred cows.

They all KNOW that if all guns were made illegal that all the criminals would immeiatly turn in all their guns and this country would become the Utopia that they dream of. Rolling Eyes

They fail to grasp that if we can't keep thousands of kilos of drugs from entering the country, we have no chance to stop illegal guns from entering.

I love watching the anti gun nutz turn a blind eye to the facts about gun carrying and crime statistics.

Sad for them to see their houses of cards tumble down.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 07:19 am
I want everyone to have the liberty to maintain peacemaker howitzer emplacements on their garage roofs and to carry small pocket-size atomics (iNuk). Liberty and personal safety are only available to folks brave and bold enough to hold a flamethrower each other's children.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 07:30 am
I never thought the day would come when I would find myself in agreement with Gungasnake. But when it comes to gun control, I quite agree: the current anti-gun culture is a hysterical reaction to some misuse of what is no more than a tool of self defense. Nobody -- as far as I know -- is arguing that militray materiel e.g. howitzers, machine guns, rocket launchers, bazookas, etc, etc, should be made available to the general public. (They wouldn't be very useful anyway except in the case of a general revolutionary insurrection.) Nobody -- again, as far as I know -- is advocating the issuance of flame throwers to deer hunters. As for your comment, Libral, I consider myself quite liberal in most political areas, save this one. I am a member of both the ACLU and the NRA.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 09:50 am
It's always the same. It jumps from pistols to howitzers and nukes. There couldn't possibly be a middle ground.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 09:59 am
McG

I just couldn't resist the iNuk gag.

I've quite given up on arguing the gun ownership with you yanquis who hold it dear. I actually like most of yous guys anyway.
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Jan, 2005 12:10 pm
In the interest of full disclosure, and just to keep the record straight, I found your iNuke reference amusing as hell, Blatham. Actually laughed out loud. One does not have to be in total agreement with a fellow debater to appreciate a fine sense of humor.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 08:34 am
"Gun control" is just one more instance of leftist ideas which explode and burn upon contact with the real world. It amounts to a failed belief in the possibility of pandering to enough speciall interest groups to somehow or other jerry-rig a voting majority out of them.

Try the following experiment: walk into the nearest WalMart and into the sporting goods section where firearms are sold, look at same, and ask yourself which of all of what you are seeing is the very last thing you'd ever want to get shot with.

The correct answer of course is one of the old 50-caliber blackpowder muzzle-loaders which are usually sold for under $200 and, like every other blackpowder weapon in most of the USA, do not even require any sort of a background check in order to buy. Everybody and everything which was ever killed by any sort of a firearm prior to around 1865 was killed by something entirely like these weapons, and yet all such are legally equivalent to slingshots in America.

What does that tell you about our "gun laws"?

Interestingly, there was no gain in lethality going from the blackpowder age to the age of smokeless powder and modern firearms; the gain was in trajectories and range. The American civil war was the last major war fought with blackpowder arms and the only one ever fought with blackpowder arms which were basically accurate out to meaningful ranges and the weapons used in that war were the most lethal of all of mankind's wars. Amputating body parts hit with those weapons was all anybody could do then and would probably be all anybody could do now.

Cabelas Blackpowder Pistol Page:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jhtml?id=cat20817&navAction=push&navCount=1&parentId=cat20817&parentType=subcategory&rid=&returnPage=&returnQueryString=&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fcatalog%2Fcategory-link.jhtml_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 08:45 am
McGentrix wrote:
It's always the same. It jumps from pistols to howitzers and nukes. There couldn't possibly be a middle ground.


This is a perfectly logical response to the abusurd axioms proposed by the gun nuts toward the effect that inanimate objects aren't responsible.

If "guns don't kill, people kill" then "nukes don't kill, people kill".
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 08:47 am
blatham wrote:
I want everyone to have the liberty to maintain peacemaker howitzer emplacements on their garage roofs and to carry small pocket-size atomics (iNuk). Liberty and personal safety are only available to folks brave and bold enough to hold a flamethrower each other's children.
Rolling Eyes

Well, every time I go out, it seems that when I return, every gun I have never escapes from it's locker. No child has ever been able to open that locker.

So maybe the anti-gun "weinies" can explain WHY I need to rid myself of my guns.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 08:50 am
Fedral wrote:
Watch out gunga, the lefties will call PETA on you for killing their sacred cows.

They all KNOW that if all guns were made illegal that all the criminals would immeiatly turn in all their guns and this country would become the Utopia that they dream of. Rolling Eyes


Another predicable fallacy crops up.

If laws aren't to be passed due to those who by definition don't follow laws then no laws should exist.

The argument that "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" is an absurd fallacy.

See, by definition that is so with any crime. Watch:

"If murder is outlawed then only outlaws will murder".

No ****! Laughing The moment it happens they fit the conveniently contructed axiom by definition.

Quote:
They fail to grasp that if we can't keep thousands of kilos of drugs from entering the country, we have no chance to stop illegal guns from entering.


Funny, some nations do and arguments like these fail to grasp this.

Quote:
I love watching the anti gun nutz turn a blind eye to the facts about gun carrying and crime statistics.

Sad for them to see their houses of cards tumble down.


I can see how you'd like to think that. Whatever floats your boat. <shrugs>
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 08:52 am
woiyo wrote:

So maybe the anti-gun "weinies" can explain WHY I need to rid myself of my guns.


Why should I be deprived of nukes? If I am responsible in the care of my nukes should I be allowed to have them?

PS your characterization of those who dislike guns as cowardly reinforces the notion of deriving your guts from your gun.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 08:55 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
woiyo wrote:

So maybe the anti-gun "weinies" can explain WHY I need to rid myself of my guns.


Why should I be deprived of nukes? If I am responsible in the care of my nukes should I be allowed to have them?


Again, from pistols to nukes. *sigh*
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 08:57 am
McGentrix wrote:

Again, from pistols to nukes. *sigh*


Argue against it instead of panting there then.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 08:59 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
woiyo wrote:

So maybe the anti-gun "weinies" can explain WHY I need to rid myself of my guns.


Why should I be deprived of nukes? If I am responsible in the care of my nukes should I be allowed to have them?

PS your characterization of those who dislike guns as cowardly reinforces the notion of deriving your guts from your gun.


Cowardly?? Where did I imply that.

Maybe you can draw some parralell between a NUCLEAR DEVICE and a pistol/rifle. Maybe that is your cowardly way of getting out of the argument.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 09:02 am
woiyo wrote:

Cowardly?? Where did I imply that.


"weinies" (sp)

"Slang. A person, especially a man, who is regarded as being weak and ineffectual."

Quote:

Maybe you can draw some parralell between a NUCLEAR DEVICE and a pistol/rifle. Maybe that is your cowardly way of getting out of the argument.


Getting out? I'm just getting in and would be happy to walk you through this.

  • You asked why you should be deprived of guns if you handle them responsibly.
  • I asked you if you can think of reasons why I should be deprived of nukes if I handle them responsibly.


Don't worry, if you can't think of anything I'll be giving the answers away later on.
0 Replies
 
Steppenwolf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 09:20 am
Gunga:

I don't think your article makes any sort of a case. As always, correlation does not imply causation. Early 20th century crime figures are not proof of anything, especially anecdotal 20th century evidence. By your logic, we might also conclude that pharmaceuticals are a leading cause of gun violence -- after all, a pretty damn good correlation can be made between rising crime and advances in the pharmaceutical and chemical industries. The same might be said of plastic, fiber optics, semiconductors, etc.

By the way, I'm pro-gun and a member of NRA (gasp!). Try not to let your political beliefs lull you into accepting bad logic. Smile That article was pure tripe!
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 09:23 am
Steppenwolf wrote:
By the way, I'm pro-gun and a member of NRA (gasp!). Try not to let your political beliefs lull you into accepting bad logic. Smile That article was pure tripe!


Well said (from a gun-fan who dislikes logical abusurdity).
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 09:46 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
woiyo wrote:

So maybe the anti-gun "weinies" can explain WHY I need to rid myself of my guns.


Why should I be deprived of nukes?


Obviously there's a reasonable line to be had somewhere in the picture. The second ammendment is a recognition of an unalienable right which people have to protect themselves and clearly the line would have to be drawn substantially higher than most liberals would like, but there IS a reasonable line there to be had.

My own thinking is that the basic criteria should be this: If AlQuaeda owning something does not cause Uncle Sam any problems substantial enough to act upon, then I should be able to own it. That says I should not be able to own shoulder-fired heat-seeking missiles, anthrax spores, or chemical or nuclear weapons. Nonetheless Alquaeda can own all the assault rifles, shotguns with politically incorrect barrels and machineguns which they can afford to buy and so long as they commit no crimes with them, Uncle Sam is not even interested.

The same policy should apply to American citizens and in fact it did until about 70 years ago. At that time present gun laws began to creep in and the avowed purpose was to provide federal agents with something to do after prohibition was eliminated.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Jan, 2005 09:51 am
gungasnake wrote:

My own thinking is that the basic criteria should be this: If AlQuaeda owning something does not cause Uncle Sam any problems substantial enough to act upon, then I should be able to own it. That says I should not be able to own shoulder-fired heat-seeking missiles, anthrax spores, or chemical or nuclear weapons. Nonetheless Alquaeda can own all the assault rifles, shotguns with politically incorrect barrels and machineguns which they can afford to buy and so long as they commit no crimes with them, Uncle Sam is not even interested.


And here you touch on the main argument for gun control.

It's not whether criminals obey laws.

It's not whether inanimate objects kill.

It's not whether one is responsible with their weapons.

It's not about whether guns prevent crimes or not.

It comes down to starving the market for the bad guys by also denying it to the good guys and whether it would be effective to do so in a particular market.

Reasonable people can disagree on that, and the mantras and illogic on all sides are unecessary.
0 Replies
 
 

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