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Why Feminism has a problem with due process.

 
 
Reply Sat 13 Jan, 2018 10:49 pm
This thread is inspired by the "MeToo" thread where a popular poster stated assuming innocence until the proof of guilt was the same as "assuming that women are lying". Allegations of sexual harrassment are often expressed in extremes. It is either "women always lie" or "women never lie".

Of course the truth doesn't lie in extremes. Sometimes men lie. Sometimes women lie. And sometimes things are messy and two people can honestly have different opinions of the same event.

We are seeing calls for the end of due process. Some of these are explicit for example this article; https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2980500. Some of these are more subtle such as the social pressure exerted on anyone who questions any aspect of the MeToo campaign.

Due process; particularly the presumption of innocence, is at the core of our democracy and is part of the UN Declaration of Human Rights. The current culture, where an anonymous complaint of a too long hug, or a social media campaign with unsubstantiated claims can ruin a career, smear a reputation and in at least one case end a life.

I think the argument is that "rape culture" justifies an end to the democratic institution. I think this argument is flawed.

The demand to give up part of the core of a democratic society is extreme.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 595 • Replies: 10

 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Sat 13 Jan, 2018 11:03 pm
Turn about. Women for centuries got no due process.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 08:25 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Some of these are more subtle such as the social pressure exerted on anyone who questions any aspect of the MeToo campaign.

This is one reason why Trump is the right man to lead America. He takes these freaks with their phony moral outrage and he puts them in their place.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 04:33 am
@oralloy,
Geez Oralloy, do you have to stab me in the back? Trump is part of the problem.

He is the best thing for feminists, he matches their stereotype of an oafish man almost to perfection. When he say he likes to grab women, "by the pussy", those words got ascribed to you and me.

There is no coincidence that this "MeToo" movement came after Trump was elected. He started it.

Feminism has made some valid points... it isn't the cause, it is the extremism. There is no question that women are paid less, that political representation is an issue and that their should be safety for women (and everyone else) in the workplace (I think even you would agree with this).

So when Trump comes, such a divisive figure who says and Tweet things that shock even non-political people, he is handing ammunition to the most extreme parts of feminism. He has done more to drive America to extremism (on both sides) than anyone.

I am a reasonable man. I would like to consider the points being made by both sides, question each, and accept the ones that make logical sense. I don't really care which political side is right on an issue.

The extremism on both sides is the problem. Due process, to me, is a core of our democratic society. When any political movement decides that due process should be curtailed for their ideological aims, I am going to resist.

oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 05:12 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Trump is part of the problem.

I disagree. I see him as the solution.


maxdancona wrote:
He is the best thing for feminists, he matches their stereotype of an oafish man almost to perfection.

And when America embraces him, America rejects the feminists.


maxdancona wrote:
When he say he likes to grab women, "by the pussy", those words got ascribed to you and me.

Feminist nutcases misrepresent people all the time. They would have continued to do so absent Trump.


maxdancona wrote:
There is no coincidence that this "MeToo" movement came after Trump was elected. He started it.

No. They started it. Leftist extremists always start nonsense.


maxdancona wrote:
Feminism has made some valid points... it isn't the cause, it is the extremism. There is no question that women are paid less, that political representation is an issue and that their should be safety for women (and everyone else) in the workplace (I think even you would agree with this).

I agree with safety in the workplace, but I question whether that is a big problem in America. I question the claim that women are paid less, and see no problems with political representation.


maxdancona wrote:
So when Trump comes, such a divisive figure who says and Tweet things that shock even non-political people, he is handing ammunition to the most extreme parts of feminism. He has done more to drive America to extremism (on both sides) than anyone.

I reject the notion that if the left hates someone, then that person is divisive. The problem is the leftist haters, not the person that they hate.

Feminists nutcases would be making weird claims even without Trump. The fact that he is there for them to make weird claims about isn't fueling them.

The fact that he is defiantly rejecting their weird nonsense though is helping to defeat the feminists. America needs to treat the feminists the way Trump is treating the feminists. He is our leader in this.


maxdancona wrote:
I am a reasonable man. I would like to consider the points being made by both sides, question each, and accept the ones that make logical sense. I don't really care which political side is right on an issue.

Same here.


maxdancona wrote:
The extremism on both sides is the problem. Due process, to me, is a core of our democratic society. When any political movement decides that due process should be curtailed for their ideological aims, I am going to resist.

I am not aware of any extremists on the right. Unless you mean those neo-nazis. But no one takes neo-nazis seriously.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 01:29 pm
@oralloy,
Sorry Oralloy, I don't see you as someone who honestly considers points from both sides. When you say that you don't see any extremism from the right, you are making this clear.

The ability to see more than one point of view implies that you can admit some areas where the other side (that would be liberals in your case) have valid points. I haven't seen you ever demonstrate this important ability.

I make the same challenge to liberals.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 02:24 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Sorry Oralloy, I don't see you as someone who honestly considers points from both sides.

If you refuse to see the truth about me, it doesn't stop being true.


maxdancona wrote:
When you say that you don't see any extremism from the right, you are making this clear.

I acknowledged the existence of fringe groups. But since no one really pays attention to them, they don't really count for much.


maxdancona wrote:
The ability to see more than one point of view implies that you can admit some areas where the other side (that would be liberals in your case) have valid points. I haven't seen you ever demonstrate this important ability.

Have you even looked? I'm a registered Democrat remember.

I agree with the Democrats on having strong social programs paid for by taxing the rich.

I don't follow the "hate the rich" nonsense that the Democrats feed to their base. But since the rich are the ones who have the money, they are the ones we need to tax.

I also agree with immigration reform.

Although I don't agree with the Democrats sabotaging immigration reform so they can then use it as an issue to attack Republicans over. I prefer that the Democrats work with Trump and actually get something passed.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 03:11 pm
@oralloy,
I haven't seen you express any opinion about immigration, taxes or public programs that isn't one-sidely conservative.

You could surprise me. But I haven't seen it yet.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 03:29 pm
@maxdancona,
How exactly is support for taxing the rich to pay for social programs (or support for immigration reform) one-sidedly conservative?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 04:33 pm
@oralloy,
This is a strange tangent... this thread wasn't supposed to be about you Oralloy (but no one else seems interested in the original topic.... which was how to reconcile modern day feminism with the principle of due process).

Show me a post, Oralloy, where you position on a piece of legislation, a policy decision or a court decision would surprise me?

Do you know how you feel when Barack Obama says something like "I believe in the second amendment". Well, that is how I feel when a conservative says they believe in "Immigration reform". It is very easy to use these terms as long as you don't have to take a specific position on what that means in policy terms.

So please, show me a post that you made about a specific policy where you took a position that would surprise me. I don't remember one.

oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Jan, 2018 05:06 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
no one else seems interested in the original topic.... which was how to reconcile modern day feminism with the principle of due process

Can't be reconciled. The only answer is for feminism to be defeated.

Thus: Trump.


maxdancona wrote:
Show me a post, Oralloy, where you position on a piece of legislation, a policy decision or a court decision would surprise me?

I'm unsure what specifically would surprise you.

It also seems to not even register with you when I state what my views are.


maxdancona wrote:
It is very easy to use these terms as long as you don't have to take a specific position on what that means in policy terms.

I'm not a politician, so I don't exactly have a detailed plan that I am trying to put into policy.

In general though, if someone is willing to be an upstanding member of our society, I'm fine with them being allowed to become citizens. That includes offering a path to citizenship to people who are already here illegally. I guess that means I support the dreaded "amnesty" that conservatives rail against.
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