I had to call God into my office Friday afternoon

It has really been a thoughtful thread for the most part, with some quips added for color. Nothing that should be offensive here, no reason to move the thread.

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farmerman wrote:

Frank you dribbling old geezer, your off subject again and getting serious about not being serious. Im gonna give you a MC Gentrix time-out , two more and you get snooded.

Me??

Serious???

Not on your life!

I don't have a serious bone in my head! :wink:

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What we have here is an examination of what our relationship with God is. Now some here see it as a one way street - God commands, we obey-- but after years of careful thought and consideration - I respectfully, and humorously, disagree. (Btw I have long years of experience, eight years of Catholic theology, several summers of youth ministry with the Christian Church, Eastern religion studies and fairly deep examinations of yoga and meditation with the Hymalayan Institute with the resulting sponge-like mind which constantly seeks new ideas.) Having said all that I go on, I do go on don't I? and recommend that anyone thinking that my original post was not made in all seriousness to read it again.
As far as I am concerned, we need a new God, one who is dependable when it comes to respecting life and doesn't act like some kind of maniac-depressive who's off his meds.

Seriously, if you were in a relationship, a loving, caring relationship with someone like the present God wouldn't it drive you nuts? He doesn't always return your calls. There are long periods where the only input is your own and he seems to be taking a lot of interest in others at your expense. And once in awhile he allows millions of humans to suffer from disease, famine and war. It's like having a recovering alcoholic for a God.

Things can be so good though, (there is a TIME article this week on whether God wants us to be happy.) There is great joy in the world and I, for one, indulge in it's waves, and there is mercy in the world and I, for one, am the recipient of much of it and there is hope too and love. But I have to tell you none of all that buoys me above the horror that this present God presides over, so I fired him.

Joe(Quocumque vobis dexerit, facite, well, maybe not quocumque)Nation

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Speaking ex cathedra from the belly button...
Serially, Joe, you've gone and made fun of your good clean sport.
Won't do, Magoo.
Why, why, why, whine?
eh?
The Big Daddy's supposed to deliver?
Did you order?
How are you planning on paying?
Problem is - you believe.
You believe that the worst thing that can be is pain and suffering and injustice, and death...
But you know that's not true.
Can't get no satisfaction.
No reaction.
to what you want, what you really, really want...
The worst thing is not doing what you want.
What you really, really want.
All the rest is blame.

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What have you done for us lately, God?
Not one damn thing that I see.
Bombs, genocide, murders, families split, the best hope of democracy losing the ferver and falling to bought politicians and unfeeling corporations, mass extinction of animals and plants, natural catstrophes - If you want to help us out take the side of our enemies.

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meditating on that.... Shocked

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Joe Nation wrote:

As far as I am concerned, we need a new God, one who is dependable when it comes to respecting life and doesn't act like some kind of maniac-depressive who's off his meds.

Seriously, if you were in a relationship, a loving, caring relationship with someone like the present God wouldn't it drive you nuts? He doesn't always return your calls. There are long periods where the only input is your own and he seems to be taking a lot of interest in others at your expense. And once in awhile he allows millions of humans to suffer from disease, famine and war. It's like having a recovering alcoholic for a God.

Things can be so good though, (there is a TIME article this week on whether God wants us to be happy.) There is great joy in the world and I, for one, indulge in it's waves, and there is mercy in the world and I, for one, am the recipient of much of it and there is hope too and love. But I have to tell you none of all that buoys me above the horror that this present God presides over, so I fired him.

Joe(Quocumque vobis dexerit, facite, well, maybe not quocumque)Nation

Geez, Joe. With all the horror in the world (and I grant you, there is plenty of it, thanks to Nature and the free will of Man,) WHY would you want to get rid of ANY source of joy, mercy, love and hope?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

graffiti wrote:

Just so you don't get the wrong idea: I am NOT a believer, however, I AM a believer in respecting other people's beliefs.

Just so you don't get the wrong idea, Graffiti...I think all this talk about "respecting other people's beliefs" is very, very overdone.

Fact is, these beliefs are, for the most part, merely wild guesses about the unknown. And most are as little more than embellisments of the silly myths of ancient peoples.

What is to respect about guesses???

And once you are on the road to "respecting" other people's "beliefs"...you end up having to deal with the logical conclusion of such foolishness.

I don't want to respect, for instance, the "beliefs" of Osama Bin Laden. I would not have respected the "beliefs" of Adolph Hitler. Nor the "beliefs" of Stalin, Idi Amin, or a host of others.

The humor in this thread has not really been over the top.

I, for one, consider it appropriate...and would vote to leave this thread right here.

And, clearly, you win. The thread beginning with a very clever piece of writing remains in 'Spirituality & Religion.'

Sorry, but I don't see that a belief in bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Amin, or a host of others has anything to do with a belief in a Christian God, but, obviously, that's just me.

Forgive my sensitivity to snood's earlier posts in this thread; he obviously takes his faith seriously. I wonder how many of you would have made such fun of something currently considered PC: probably none. It's very PC to put down people with religious beliefs. I don't have them myself, but I see no reason to follow the PC crowd every time you decide who it's okay to make fun of or lump together.

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I think God needs to go into therapy. He has vast resources of all those things you mention, but then like some doper you can't trust with your apartment keys he goes off the deep end and sinks 101,000 Indonesians.

Can you trust a God like that with your life if all of those folks are so much flotsam?

Just because Gods claims to love us is no reason to give him a pass if we find out he's a mass murderer. We wouldn't accept such behavior from anyone else we were in love with, why would we do it with the person who claims to be love?

Joe (now I lay me down to sleep) Nation

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graffiti wrote:

Sorry, but I don't see that a belief in bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Amin, or a host of others has anything to do with a belief in a Christian God, but, obviously, that's just me.

But that is just the point. And that is always the way things are.

You are not asking for respect for beliefs...but rather for respect for some beliefs.

You, essentially, (a universal you)...want to decide which beliefs are worthy of respect...and which are not.

Snood's and Moishe's, you feel, are worthy of respect...but Bin Laden's and Hitler's are not.

Maybe none are!

That was my point that "all this talk about "respecting other people's beliefs" is very, very overdone."

Quote:

Forgive my sensitivity to snood's earlier posts in this thread; he obviously takes his faith seriously. I wonder how many of you would have made such fun of something currently considered PC: probably none. It's very PC to put down people with religious beliefs. I don't have them myself, but I see no reason to follow the PC crowd every time you decide who it's okay to make fun of or lump together.

Well...there are those who demand respect for their "beliefs"...but who do not respect the philosophical bents of others.

We have a thread going where the "believers" have no trouble with the words "one nation, under god"...and think that those of us who are outside the "believers" mainstream should just shut up about it and let the majority have their way...even though it is willfull on the part of the believers.

I'm not making a huge point here.

But every time I hear people going on about "respect for beliefs"...I cringe. Not all beliefs are worthy of respect...and in fact, damn few are.

Or at least...that is my opinion.

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I'm chiming in from a nice place where God and I are having wings of all kinds and I'm drinking yager and God is having Manischevitz...he actually just makes it from the water the waitress is bringing...God is tricky.....I'm on His laptop....God just made an observation to me a few minutes ago that in a restaurant where you can get a sampler platter of every kind of buffalo wing imaginable and those little wetnaps that everyone needs to look at the glass as half full and not half empty. He says that **** happens but it beats never living at all and he wishes people would remember that.

Listen I gotta bolt....Lenny the local transvestite is trying to walk God out to the parking lot, and I can't let that happen....anyway I'll report back in tomorrow.....

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Frank Apisa wrote:

graffiti wrote:
Sorry, but I don't see that a belief in bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Amin, or a host of others has anything to do with a belief in a Christian God, but, obviously, that's just me.

But that is just the point. And that is always the way things are.

You are not asking for respect for beliefs...but rather for respect for some beliefs.

You, essentially, (a universal you)...want to decide which beliefs are worthy of respect...and which are not.

Snood's and Moishe's, you feel, are worthy of respect...but Bin Laden's and Hitler's are not.

Maybe none are!

Do you honestly think there are no worthwhile beliefs?

In other words, you put Hitler and Stalin in the same category as those who find solace in organized religion?

Do you find it to be the same thing to believe in genocide as to believe in, for example, the 10 Commandments?

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

God already told me about this. I'm not supposd to talk about it...but be careful.... and observant.....

U what am i missing summin here

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Maybe summin, Max, maybe nothing, but, (who else?) BiPolar Bear has it right when he quotes God from across a platter of wings and wine:

Quote:

He says that **** happens but it beats never living at all and he wishes people would remember that.

Truer words were never spoken, except when Thomas Jefferson spoke his mind, but here's the thing: Yeah, **** happens, but that is not what they tell people, they tell people His eye is on the sparrow. Well, I think he took care of the sparrows. (The incident of animal and bird death remains very low, in some cases on Sri Lanka where there are whole villages of people wiped out without the loss of a single cow or pig.) So what I see here is a violation of his contract with us. So, I fired him.

The truth is, I thought God had my back, but now I see that's not always so. So I'm watching out now in case he has another spell or something. I find myself staring at the writing on the dollar bill where it says "In God, We Trust" well okay, but be observant and if you are not too busy, watch my back.

Joe (eye on the sparrow, eye on the ball, keep an eye on me.) Nation

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Compliments on your writing in that first post, Joe. And to everyone else for joining the thread in the right tone for the first few pages there. Sometimes one needs to be neither quite flippant, nor hectoringly serious.

(hectoring - nimh learned a new word - now just to stop using it in the wrong way)

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graffiti wrote:

Do you honestly think there are no worthwhile beliefs?

I didn't say there are no worthwhile beliefs.

What I said was:

Quote:

Just so you don't get the wrong idea, Graffiti...I think all this talk about "respecting other people's beliefs" is very, very overdone.

Fact is, these beliefs are, for the most part, merely wild guesses about the unknown. And most are as little more than embellisments of the silly myths of ancient peoples.

What is to respect about guesses???

And once you are on the road to "respecting" other people's "beliefs"...you end up having to deal with the logical conclusion of such foolishness.

I don't want to respect, for instance, the "beliefs" of Osama Bin Laden. I would not have respected the "beliefs" of Adolph Hitler. Nor the "beliefs" of Stalin, Idi Amin, or a host of others.

I stand by that!

In reply, you mentioned:

Quote:

Sorry, but I don't see that a belief in bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Amin, or a host of others has anything to do with a belief in a Christian God, but, obviously, that's just me.

And I pointed out that that was my point!

You...and most other people who lecture on having respect for other people's "beliefs"...are not truly interested in having respect for "beliefs"...but rather for beliefs you agree with.

So in a way...those of us who do not agree with some of the religious beliefs...are doing the same thing as you...

...NOT having respect for those beliefs. And from there...it is just a short step to actually disrespecting those beliefs. More about that in a bit.

Quote:

In other words, you put Hitler and Stalin in the same category as those who find solace in organized religion?

Very interesting that you left Osama Bin Laden out of that mix. So let me put him back in there...and take Hitler and Stalin out.

Yes, Graffiti, I do put Osama Bin Laden in the same category as those who find solace in organized religion.

And as for Hitler and Stalin...I think it significant that Stalin actually entered seminary and studied for the priesthood...and Hitler aspired to the priesthood as a young man. Both, at points in their lives, "found solace in organized religion."

Here is an interesting passage from a speech by Adolph Hitler:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922 "

Quote:

Do you find it to be the same thing to believe in genocide as to believe in, for example, the 10 Commandments?

Well...the 10 Commandments are only a small part of the Law (Leviticus is the major book of the Law)...and quite honestly, Graffiti, the book of Leviticus proclaims a philosophy that is as bad as genocide.

On that account...and on the considerable hypocrisy associated with it...I do disrespect the beliefs based on the Bible.

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Thank you, Frank, for taking the time to seriously address my last post.

This is what happened on this thread for me:

1. I joined in the fun on page 2, I believe; anyway, it was early on;

2. A member was hurt by the mocking of his beliefs a few pages later;

3. That, as I posted, 'gave me pause' because I can't stand to be part of (intentionally) hurting anyone;

4. My posts became more philosophical and less precise as I learned that 'no good deed goes unpunished' here;

5. As to the Bible: I am NO believer! That is why I singled out the 10 commandments rather than referring to the Law ...

I hope you better understand my motivations now and I'm sorry it got so out-of-hand with you. All I wanted to do was not to hurt someone who I have no reason to believe deserved it and it escalated from there.

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graffiti wrote:

Thank you, Frank, for taking the time to seriously address my last post.

This is what happened on this thread for me:

1. I joined in the fun on page 2, I believe; anyway, it was early on;

2. A member was hurt by the mocking of his beliefs a few pages later;

3. That, as I posted, 'gave me pause' because I can't stand to be part of (intentionally) hurting anyone;

4. My posts became more philosophical and less precise as I learned that 'no good deed goes unpunished' here;

5. As to the Bible: I am NO believer! That is why I singled out the 10 commandments rather than referring to the Law ...

I hope you better understand my motivations now and I'm sorry it got so out-of-hand with you. All I wanted to do was not to hurt someone who I have no reason to believe deserved it and it escalated from there.

I agree with almost everything you've said here, Graffiti...and I am enjoying your posts. I like the way you write; I am in essential agreement with most of what you say; and I think your presentation is exceptional.

I also enjoy discussing this subject, though...so when you opened the door, I walked through. The issue of respect for beliefs is a big thing with me...and I seldom pass up an invitation to discuss it

I hope you stick around A2K...and if you do...you will see many, many discussions of the points made in this thread...both in jest and seriously. I hope we can be friends in any threads in which we meet.

As for the person "whose feelings were hurt"...well...I'll just leave that be.

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Frank, I want to stick around A2K very much.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who enjoys my posts, likes the way I write; and thinks my presentation is exceptional is definitely my friend.

:wink:

I had to call God into my office Friday afternoon

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