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Evolutionry/religious nonsense

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Apr, 2018 03:31 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Is there a difference between observing all isotopes at the same energy level interact exactly the same and assuming they all act the same when you aren't looking? And then, based on that assumption, developing laws of physics that we accept as nearly factual all the time?
unstable isotopes have disintegration rates that are generally unknown escept for within large ranges and the math that measures these '"lambda values" are constantly being revised. Our present decay constants are due to be redone in the next 10 to 15 years and Steiger and Yeager will be eclipsed.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Apr, 2018 05:22 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
The ID crowd has been preaching a form of Theistic evolution and "controlled ecosystems" that were tools used by this undefined Intelligence. In reality, using an Occams Razorly approach, the simplest explanation is random mutation and nat selection of life to its unplannable changing environment
Random mutations cannot introduce the new information accurately enough in the right sequence. If "nature" in the way a living organism manages the the new information, is capable of sequencing the new information to eventually lead to new species that is evidence that there is a built in information management system in the biological organism. Do you at least agree with that?

If a built in information management system is running in nature to cause evolution then, we should be able to replicate it by turning a computer on and letting it write its own software to say write various a novels. The problem is we still had to build the computer, and designed the operating system for the purpose to create new software.

That appears to me to be a pretty good analogy of what is going on in evolution.
Wiki
Quote:
In the scientific method, Occam's razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic or a scientific result; the preference for simplicity in the scientific method is based on the falsifiability criterion. For each accepted explanation of a phenomenon, there may be an extremely large, perhaps even incomprehensible, number of possible and more complex alternatives. Since one can always burden failing explanations with ad hoc hypotheses to prevent them from being falsified, simpler theories are preferable to more complex ones because they are more testable.[3][4][5]


You will never be able to replicate a being with similar but much greater capabilities than our own. (abiogenis will not happen in a lab until we get better at managing information going into any experiment trying to prove it.) To assume the pattern we establish when we add new information to the universe would be similar to the way a being with capabilities greater than ours is compatible with Occam's razor because it is the simplest explanation that fits the pattern.

Assuming complexity entered the universe without intelligent guidance in the past is simple but, does not fit the pattern we observe today. So, why are you assuming the pattern was broken in the ancient past?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Apr, 2018 07:04 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
....the pattern we observe today.....

Q What 'pattern' ?
A. What 'we' humans define as such in our prediction and control activities.

You are stuck in a circular irrational argument in which 'complexity' is defined as 'difficulty to predict and control by 'us' hence lets evoke 'another superior to us'.
But many of 'another's' hypothetical 'design attempts' have been wasteful and futile even to our 'less sophisticated eyes', implying that the 'designer' is not so 'intelligent'. Your 'designer' appears to enjoy shooting itself in the foot ! Smile
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Apr, 2018 01:27 pm
@fresco,
If Homo sapiens are the “chosen” animal of god, he screwed up big time. We have developed weapons that can destroy this planet.
https://www.globalzero.org/blog/how-many-nukes-would-it-take-render-earth-uninhabitable
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Apr, 2018 03:48 pm
@fresco,
Could you quote me where i said that? And explain where i am irrational
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Apr, 2018 06:03 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Random mutations cannot introduce the new information accurately enough in the right sequence.
Qnd you know this HOW?

If one mutation doesnt p[provide a list of re productively preferred advantages over something else, Natural selection will fix it in place and perhaps additional mutations will get it even closer to something "Thatll work". Evolution does NOT seek perfection, it merely provides somethong like one of three folks who are being chased by a bear. "I dont have to outrun the bear, I have only to outrun you". Of all the options presented by mutations , nat selection merely picks the one that works better and proffers an advantage to the carrier. This then gets spread through the population as a benefit .

Look at the tongues of woodpeckers, or the middle ears of whales, why dont primates have the ability to produce Vitamin C. What about sickle cell anemia and malarial protection, How bout atavistic throwbacks, convergent evolution.??(Ive fed you at least one from which you should be able to make an argument)
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Apr, 2018 06:16 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
You will never be able to replicate a being with similar but much greater capabilities than our own. (abiogenis will not happen in a lab until we get better at managing information going into any experiment trying to prove it.) To assume the pattern we establish when we add new information to the universe would be similar to the way a being with capabilities greater than ours is compatible with Occam's razor because it is the simplest explanation that fits the pattern.


I suppose you believe all this ??eh??
I sure dont, Your need for a "pattern"?? the fossil record is full of "one offs" whyzat?

You dint seem able to pick up on comparative analogies. I merely chose the simplest explanation because yours (going in) is so complex that you have to keep making up sidebars and subroutines.
Whether you understand it or not, your worldview requires the environment, calendar, coupled with catastrophies and geologic processes, all be finely tuned to act as " equivalently pre- planned events that control your ID's creation.
Jut let evolution act un directed and what occured actually makes perfect sense. The living world evolved in a haphazard "two steps forward and one step back" mode with really no direction in mind.

Qs fresco said, if there were an intelligent designer, he sure was a ****-up. But Im sure you know that, and you dint ask for any reasonable explanation how come??
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2018 12:18 am
@cicerone imposter,
....unless of course humans were 'chosen' to do just that in order to pave the way for occupation of the planet by more 'worthy' beings ! Shocked
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2018 02:02 am
@brianjakub,
You did not 'say' that. It's the obvious 'thought' of an ID-er faced with the 'complexity beyond human understanding' problem.
You are irrational because the implied sophistication of your hypothetical 'designer' is negated by the wastefulness of the 'design process'.
You can't have it both ways. Either there is no 'design' in the only sense we can understand i.e. 'intelligence', or your 'designer' is no more 'intelligent' than a problem solver using 'trial and error', which could be a description for 'mutation based natural evolution'.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2018 01:15 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
It's the obvious 'thought' of an ID-er faced with the 'complexity beyond human understanding' problem.
You are irrational because the implied sophistication of your hypothetical 'designer' is negated by the wastefulness of the 'design process'.
You can't have it both ways. Either there is no 'design' in the only sense we can understand i.e. 'intelligence', or your 'designer' is no more 'intelligent' than a problem solver using 'trial and error', which could be a description for 'mutation based natural evolution'.
Where was it wasteful? The universe started simple without matter. Now there is matter (some of it living and evolving to higher complexity). Some of that living matter is now understanding and asking questions about matter and its purpose.

Looks like the process is working pretty good. I don't see any of my life as a waste and I'm thankful this 13 billion year process happened so I can experience my part in it.

Do you see something in the trial and error process that is wasteful?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2018 02:03 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Looks like the process is working pretty good.
By what kind of definition are you claiming "the process is working pretty good?" There is no "intelligent designer."
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2018 05:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
By what kind of definition are you claiming "the process is working pretty good?" There is no "intelligent designer."
wiki on evolution
Quote:

Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations.[1][2] Evolutionary processes give rise to biodiversity at every level of biological organisation, including the levels of species, individual organisms, and molecules.[3]
I believe evolution by natural selection is a process that was established millions or billions of years a go by intelligence just like all processes that are initiated today that appear to be achieving a predetermined goal. Why do you keep ignoring the obvious pattern?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Apr, 2018 07:55 pm
@brianjakub,
Not any intelligence of any god: It’s the result of the environment that produced the life forms on this planet. This planet existed for 4.5 billion years before Homo sapiens appeared around 200,000 yo. Your god appeared only 2,000 years ago. Somewhat late on the scene, because your god was imagined by men living in the land of Jews, and they determined they were the “chosen” people. What’s wrong with this scenario? Many other gods were created in other countries and cultures long before the Christian god.
fresco
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2018 12:52 am
@brianjakub,
On 'waste', what is the 'successful' mutation of deadly viruses or bacteria all about ? Surely no 'intelligent' designer would build fatal flaws into a system !
And don't try playing the 'mysterious ways' card Smile .
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2018 12:58 am
@fresco,
PBS today had an author report on his new book "Darwin Comes to Town". It was a review of how urbanization has led to rapid evolution of many species of plants, insects, and vertebrates (including certain fish species that have evolved into free roaming "Niche exploiters") and thus changing their entire digestive systems to accomodate these niche exploitations .(All done in less than 10 generations). Our own civilizations have re-defined natural selection

I think the author was from Leyden.
fresco
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2018 01:03 am
@farmerman,
Nice point...follows non-dualistic views of actor-environment relationships.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2018 01:11 am
@fresco,
NO "road to perfection"????
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2018 02:39 am
Not all opinions are created equal. Some opinions are formed by those who are well-informed, but I believe those are the minority. More often, opinions are formed based on the prejudices--either for or against an idea--rather than being informed. A great many opinions are formed based on the belief sets of those who hold them. I believe that those opinions are the majority type of opinion. I cannot, of course, say to a certainty that that is the case, but it is my experience.

What we get from the god-botherers is opinion. The response of religious types to a concept such as evolution is not based on evidence, nor even on prejudice, unless it were the prejudice in favor of their concept of a creator deity. They form their opinions based on the significance to them of a world view based on the assumption that there is a creator deity, without regard to any evidence, or even the plausibility of the proposition they attempt to forward. This is what we get from BJ and LF--opinion, not based on evidence, but on the prejudice for a world view based on the assumption that there is a creator deity. We'll never see a scrap of evidence from any of the religious types, because their minds are made up in advance of any discussion of evidence or plausibility.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2018 01:10 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Re: brianjakub (Post 6627690)
Quote:
Quote:
Random mutations cannot introduce the new information accurately enough in the right sequence.

Qnd you know this HOW?

If one mutation doesnt p[provide a list of re productively preferred advantages over something else, Natural selection will fix it in place and perhaps additional mutations will get it even closer to something "Thatll work".


And you know this how? We are talking about the likelihood of a sequence of random mutations being capable of succeeding in developing a new species rather than introducing errors. We have never witnessed random entries of new info leading to new complex information.

Quote:
Evolution does NOT seek perfection, it merely provides somethong like one of three folks who are being chased by a bear. "I dont have to outrun the bear, I have only to outrun you". Of all the options presented by mutations , nat selection merely picks the one that works better and proffers an advantage to the carrier. This then gets spread through the population as a benefit .


Why do you keep talking about natural selection? it works the same for intelligent introduction of mutations or random introduction of mutations. Natrual selection is happening and working nobody is arguing that. Species are going extinct today. We know that there are no new species that have popped into existence through random mutations in recent history. For that reason we have no physical evidence of it happening. Your arguments work equally well for ID or random. I witness intelligence leading to complexity everyday. Nobody has witnessed random introduction of info leading to complexity ever.

In addition to that, there are very few mutations that don't lead to death or something that damages a living organism. There are even fewer mutations that lead to evolution to higher life form. The number of bad mutations far outnumber the number of beneficial mutations.

Since the mutations are randomly chosen from all possibilities, it is highly unlikely that life forms will branch off into many branches where each branch used a different sequence of mutations to reach new levels of complexity. Death is the more likely outcome The math does not add up.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2018 01:28 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
It’s the result of the environment that produced the life forms on this planet. This planet existed for 4.5 billion years before Homo sapiens appeared around 200,000 yo. Your god appeared only 2,000 years ago. Somewhat late on the scene, because your god was imagined by men living in the land of Jews, and they determined they were the “chosen” people.


How do you know the Jews imagined their god and that they were chosen? Why assume that? You have any evidence to support your claim?

If you are wrong that is a major misinterpretation of the data you are posting like it is a fact.

I posted earlier That the bible in the first chapter of the gospel of John stated:
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it. . .

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So the Christian God existed in the beginning as the Word of God, and stored all the information God thought of about the universe as words in the atoms of the universe. (We are now reading and interpreting them.) Then the person who changed Gods ideas into matter that we can observe and experience, decided to live in the atoms he made by becoming flesh. That he did 13 billion years after he created the universe. He was at both events though. Why do you misrepresent how I and other Christians interpret the data?
0 Replies
 
 

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