20
   

Evolutionry/religious nonsense

 
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 02:11 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
That's the point I've been trying to make and no one yet has been able to tell me why a dog is a dog.

They'll just tell you the dog is just a domesticated wolf. And the wolf came from a gopher-like thing. It came from a blah, blah, bla....
And of course the whale came from a thing that looked like a small deer and so on.

Well, I think there are elements of truth in all things.. seems the problem is putting the pieces together.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 02:12 pm
@jerlands,
jerlands wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
If you are going to object to the theory, you at least owe it to yourself to object to the actual theory rather than some misinterpretation of it.
This is a very good point but I'm really trying.

I think you are trying, that's why I'm trying to help.

The first step is to make sure you understand the process of evolution as it's described by science. That way we can determine what you are objecting to. Right now, based on some of the things you've posted it's not clear to me that you are accurately representing the theory that you are objecting to, and that's a bit of a fundamental problem that we have to get cleared up first.

jerlands wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
No single individual evolves. No organism needs to even be aware of the process. All any organism needs to do is to go about its natural life and survive long enough to reproduce. Which is exactly why no intelligence or planning or thought is required
All this is bunk to me. You're saying because we may not be aware we're evolving that evolution will just happen and we don't have to do anything?

Of course that's what we're saying, otherwise how could animals as simple as bacteria evolve? They obviously can't think about things the way we can. So in order for evolution to work it must be based on a process which is inherent in nature, something so simple and inevitable that it doesn't require thought or planning. And that's exactly what the theory of biological evolution does, it provides a methodology which satisfies that requirement.

So, what part of that is bunk to you? Is it bunk because you don't believe it "can" work that way, or because you don't believe it "should" work that way? I'm still trying to understand exactly what you are objecting to or why it doesn't make sense to you.
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 02:13 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

So I think the thing from the movie 'Alien' is not so far fetched.

I don't recall seeing the movie so I'm not certain what you're talking about? Anyway.. I really don't think we can touch upon anything outside of reality.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 02:15 pm
@jerlands,
jerlands wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
All any organism needs to do is to go about its natural life and survive long enough to reproduce.

Ok.. would it be fair to say the primary driving force behind evolution is survival? Or do you need to include reproduction in that definition also (even though I thought it was already.?)

You really have to include the whole thing. In order for Biological Evolution to happen you need three things: Reproduction, Variation and Selection.

There is no single element of that which supersedes the others. It's like if you said, "which is most important (driving force) for living", eating or breathing or not falling off a cliff?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 02:17 pm
@jerlands,
jerlands wrote:
There is relativity in here somewhere. Water will take the form of any glass you pour it into.

Are you discussing all this at the level of science, or philosophy? There's a big difference.
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 02:21 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

jerlands wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
All any organism needs to do is to go about its natural life and survive long enough to reproduce.

Ok.. would it be fair to say the primary driving force behind evolution is survival? Or do you need to include reproduction in that definition also (even though I thought it was already.?)

You really have to include the whole thing. In order for Biological Evolution to happen you need three things: Reproduction, Variation and Selection.

There is no single element of that which supersedes the others. It's like if you said, "which is most important (driving force) for living", eating or breathing or not falling off a cliff?

Reproduction seems a driving force but is variation and selection? I would say no, I see those as effects of a driving force, so lets exclude those two elements in our equation. So the primary driving force in biological evolution is reproduction? I don't think that as complete as "the primary driving force in biological evolution is survival."
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 02:22 pm
@jerlands,
Quote:
No one has been able to tell me why a dog is a Dog.


I think 2 options are available to explain.

1. There was a natural nitch in the ecosystem and by chance reorganization or creation of new DNA something evolved into a dog and (to paraphrase what farmer said earlier) by gosh and by golly, to everyone’s good fortune, the nitch was filled.

2. There was a need that needed to be filled in the ecosystem (a problem) like something is needed to eat bunnies to keep them from over populating and someday Brian will need a pet named Jax. Somebody recognized the need (the problem) and wrote an algorithm to fulfill the need (algorithm solving the problem). Once in a while Jax brings home a rabbit and solves both problems.
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 02:23 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

jerlands wrote:
There is relativity in here somewhere. Water will take the form of any glass you pour it into.

Are you discussing all this at the level of science, or philosophy? There's a big difference.



Ok.. science is simply a branch of the great tree of philosophy.
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 02:24 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

Quote:
No one has been able to tell me why a dog is a Dog.


I think 2 options are available to explain.

1. There was a natural nitch in the ecosystem and by chance reorganization or creation of new DNA something evolved into a dog and (to paraphrase what farmer said earlier) by gosh and by golly, to everyone’s good fortune, the nitch was filled.

2. There was a need that needed to be filled in the ecosystem (a problem) like something is needed to eat bunnies to keep them from over populating and someday Brian will need a pet named Jax. Somebody recognized the need (the problem) and wrote an algorithm to fulfill the need (algorithm solving the problem). Once in a while Jax brings home a rabbit and solves both problems.


Maybe we should first examine what a dog is?
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 02:47 pm
@jerlands,
I thought i did that when i explained it looked like an algorithm running an operating system in hardware, and that algorithm is solving the bunny problem.

What do you think a dog is?
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 02:56 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

I thought i did that when i explained it looked like an algorithm running an operating system in hardware, and that algorithm is solving the bunny problem.

What do you think a dog is?

I think all things are answers to the quest for survival. That is my basic perception... my view. To understand what a dog is I think it's important to look at how it answers this quest. What are it's modes and methods for survival (and I'm looking at the foundational (wild) animal.) One interesting aspect is the way it hunts and assimilates prey.
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 03:02 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

I thought i did that when i explained it looked like an algorithm running an operating system in hardware, and that algorithm is solving the bunny problem.

What do you think a dog is?

In ancient egypt they associated the dog with digestion and assimilation. The jackal buries its food and lets the earth's natural flora break it apart then consumes it.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 03:22 pm
@jerlands,
Looks like multiple problems are being solved. Maybe we can use this pattern to better understand how we can integrate better with nature and manage it. It seems the Egyptians and Climate Change advocates are both recognizing the pattern and using it for a motivation and guidance to manage nature.
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 03:27 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

Looks like multiple problems are being solved. Maybe we can use this pattern to better understand how we can integrate better with nature and manage it. It seems the Egyptians and Climate Change advocates are both recognizing the pattern and using it for a motivation and guidance to manage nature.

Man is nature. As we better understand ourselves I think we might better understand not only our environment but how to interact within it.
ekename
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 06:59 pm
@jerlands,
Have you ever owned a dog?
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 07:03 pm
@ekename,
ekename wrote:

Have you ever owned a dog?

cats, dogs, horses, cows and etc., I know domestic animals have develped innate ability to understand man's behavior but man hasn't yet developed that ability for the animal.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 07:28 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
If you can't talk with me man to man about the subject, I'm not interested
If you fake comprehension (and then freely admit that youre not even interested in what the courts decreed), I sure as hell have no further interest in your make-believe debate.
ekename
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 08:23 pm
@jerlands,
Quote:
In ancient egypt they associated the dog with digestion and assimilation. The jackal buries its food and lets the earth's natural flora break it apart then consumes it.


I thought you were implying that dogs buried their food for reasons other than that it was surplus to current requirements.
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 08:44 pm
@ekename,
ekename wrote:

Quote:
In ancient egypt they associated the dog with digestion and assimilation. The jackal buries its food and lets the earth's natural flora break it apart then consumes it.


I thought you were implying that dogs buried their food for reasons other than that it was surplus to current requirements.

The jackal eats rotten meat similar to the vulture however the vulture doesn't bury its food as you note that's beyond its current requirement.
ekename
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2018 09:07 pm
@jerlands,
Were you implying that dogs buried their food for reasons other than that it was surplus to current requirements?
 

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