20
   

Evolutionry/religious nonsense

 
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jan, 2018 05:00 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

It makes sense to me. And all I'm doing is following the basic understanding which has been around for almost two centuries. I'm not sure why it doesn't make sense to you.

Well, things change.. think about all the things that have happened in two centuries.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jan, 2018 05:24 pm
@rosborne979,
I'll just ask you, since you do not seem to be aware of the past arguments for why evolution has not produced the 'super-predator' that it logically might.

Why would evolution not produce a life form that dominated all the rest, even though it would eventually eat all its prey and starve to death? Evolution is incapable of seeing that coming and so it would not 'survive'. What prevents this from happening?

Many species have gone extinct but not through this mechanism AFAIK. It's virtually always an environmental factor, asteroid, etc.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jan, 2018 05:54 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Evolution supposedly solves the 'evolutionary super predator' problem by Evolution supposedly solves the 'evolutionary super predator' problem by aiming for or achieving 'balance' (and therefore survive to continue the evolutionary process). This, even though evolution is said to have no aim or goals and could care less about balance. (and therefore survive to continue the evolutionary process). This, even though evolution is said to have no aim or goals and could care less about balance.


WAIT A DARN MINUTE YOU are the one that is claiming that evolution has an "aim" (to achieve balance). WHo said that? Id like to see more of those assertions.

We are a top predator, killing the bluefin tuna, the chilean "Sea bass" mako shark, and the Asian Lion (AND A whole lot more are already dead like the Passenger pigeon , the gret auk, the New Zealland MOA). Extinction supposedly creates new niches to be exploited by something unrelated to the extinct.

The extinction of the Thilacenes has created a secondary decline oof KIWIS whose giant eggs are loved by rats and snakes.




0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jan, 2018 07:25 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Evolution supposedly solves the 'evolutionary super predator' problem by Evolution supposedly solves the 'evolutionary super predator' problem by aiming for or achieving 'balance' (and therefore survive to continue the evolutionary process). This, even though evolution is said to have no aim or goals and could care less about balance. (and therefore survive to continue the evolutionary process). This, even though evolution is said to have no aim or goals and could care less about balance.


WAIT A DARN MINUTE YOU are the one that is claiming that evolution has an "aim" (to achieve balance). WHo besides you said that? Id like to see more of her assertions.

We are a top predator, killing the bluefin tuna, the chilean "Sea bass" mako shark, and the Asian Lion (AND A whole lot more are already dead like the Passenger pigeon , the gret auk, the New Zealland MOA). Extinction supposedly creates new niches to be exploited by something unrelated to the extinct.

The extinction of the Thilacenes has created a secondary decline oof KIWIS whose giant eggs are loved by rats and snakes.




jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jan, 2018 08:08 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

jerlands wrote:
You may be right. The process of evolution may be a simple algorithm like x+y=z? I imagine though as life became more complex the algorithm had to evolve to accommodate greater variance. Or maybe the great algorithm pre-existed and we slowly evolved up to it?

No. The same basic process that began billions of years ago is still the primary driving force.


Hmm, what is that basic process?
What seems apparent to me is life is in opposition to the chaos in the universe. That life tends to order itself. Now it seems you're suggesting there is some algorithm that all life follows and that it has from day 1.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 05:31 am
@Leadfoot,
Are you familiar with the “Red Queen” principle in evolution?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 05:35 am
@jerlands,
The process is Biological Evolution. You know, the thing we’ve been talking about... at least that what I thought we were talking about. What the hell have you been talking about?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 07:44 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Are you familiar with the “Red Queen” principle in evolution?

Too funny! Tell that to farmer. He doesn't think there have been any arguments for evolution seeking 'balance', which is essentially what 'Red Queen' supposedly explains.

Now will you answer the question?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 07:59 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
WAIT A DARN MINUTE YOU are the one that is claiming that evolution has an "aim" (to achieve balance). WHo besides you said that? Id like to see more of her assertions.
That would be Ros and his lady friend the Red Queen.

Quote:
We are a top predator, killing the bluefin tuna, the chilean "Sea bass" mako shark, and the Asian Lion (AND A whole lot more are already dead like the Passenger pigeon , the gret auk, the New Zealland MOA). Extinction supposedly creates new niches to be exploited by something unrelated to the extinct.

See, we are doing a great service to evolution by clearing niches for evolution to fill!

But seriously, you have proved the bible's contention that God gave man dominion over the earth. We do with it as we damn well please (for better or worse).
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 08:24 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
That would be Ros and his lady friend the Red Queen.
You seem to believe that evolution is exclusive in its results??
It aint.

Quote:
you have proved the bible's contention that God gave man dominion over the earth. We do with it as we damn well please (for better or worse).
Wanna try door number two?

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 08:30 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Too funny! Tell that to farmer. He doesn't think there have been any arguments for evolution seeking 'balance',
No dimmy. Stop, ONCE AGAIN, trying to replace my words with something you can deal with
. MY POINT (and Ill go R E A L slow so that your meat computer can undertand). WHile I already explained that evolution isnt exclusive in modes, please dont make up **** that ignores what I really said about "INTENT" within evlution. I SAID' WHo said that evolution "seeks" anything or attempts to generate balance. Evolution is, as tons of evidence seems to show, MINDLESS.



Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 08:57 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Evolution is, as tons of evidence seems to show, MINDLESS.

You sound like you were not able to parse my question correctly since you thought I was saying otherwise.

That is the contention of science, on that we agree, even though there is always a few weasel word theories to explain the 'appearance of design' as in Red Queen' (You know, asexual species growing penises and vaginas because they were not able to survive making babies the old way. And also the other way around!)

But ignoring the Queen for now, the question is - how come no 'super fox' that eats all the rabbits, etc. ?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 09:08 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Leadfoot Quote:
"you have proved the bible's contention that God gave man dominion over the earth. We do with it as we damn well please (for better or worse)."


Wanna try door number two?
I assume that means you have no counter argument?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 09:14 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
We are a top predator, killing the bluefin tuna, the chilean "Sea bass" mako shark, and the Asian Lion (AND A whole lot more are already dead like the Passenger pigeon , the gret auk, the New Zealland MOA).

That damn evolution is supposed to answer that problem. Where are the evolved creatures able to compete with us?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 09:24 am
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
But ignoring the Queen for now, the question is - how come no 'super fox' that eats all the rabbits, etc. ?

Because rabbits evolve to. Predator and Prey are in an evolutionary arms race. This is pretty simple. I'm not sure why you aren't getting it.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 09:30 am
@Leadfoot,
how does any of that vaguely imply design?. Im really curious how we (or you) get to that conclusion.

Quote:
since you thought I was saying otherwise.
You do have a learned " bifurcate vagueness" about your statements. I always thought that it was so you could try to not get cornered, and thus blame the other guy for dimness at its lack of understanding .

If snarling rats eat all the kiwis does that not comply with your superpredator concept? Think of it another way. Many vegetarian animals are limited into the range in which their main host plants live , and as these plants succumb to some outside edaphic force (or climatic), so does the animal. Look at all the insects in which "host plants" are being reduced in numbers .

"Superfoxes" derived from Eocene placental pre canids, (I wonder how many genera there were in total since the Eocene till today).

Something like Andrewsarkis was a carnivore that seemingly separated the hyenas from canids etx etc. Did any of them "eat themselves out of existance"? We do know that several of the "met eting toothed" precanids were more or less initially unfit for the coming Savannah conditions because of the fore and aft "locking" of their hip bones. While prey animals evolved from a common ancestor ( evolving a hip and foot structure as well as a surfeit of mitochondria thus causing an arrival of the fittest for open savannah). True Canids, like wolves ,foxes, and even bears and cats, waited till the Oligocene to explode in species, perhaps as an adaptation to the newer environments which brought out the megatheria plant eaters.

Youd have to follow a single species at a time to answer your question. Hoover, I feel that from what we know about what early man did to mastodons and imperial elephants and moas, we can extrapolate with a degree of certainty that the same things happened with other species of meatatarians and plant eaters.

0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 11:49 am
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

jerlands wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:

jerlands wrote:

You may be right. The process of evolution may be a simple algorithm like x+y=z? I imagine though as life became more complex the algorithm had to evolve to accommodate greater variance. Or maybe the great algorithm pre-existed and we slowly evolved up to it?

No. The same basic process that began billions of years ago is still the primary driving force.


Hmm, what is that basic process?
What seems apparent to me is life is in opposition to the chaos in the universe. That life tends to order itself. Now it seems you're suggesting there is some algorithm that all life follows and that it has from day 1.


The process is Biological Evolution. You know, the thing we’ve been talking about... at least that what I thought we were talking about. What the hell have you been talking about?


We're talking about the primary driving force behind biological evolution.
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 11:54 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
Too funny! Tell that to farmer. He doesn't think there have been any arguments for evolution seeking 'balance',

Evolution is, as tons of evidence seems to show, MINDLESS.

It seems so odd to me that a mindless direction leads to a mindful state?
0 Replies
 
jerlands
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 12:35 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

I SAID' WHo said that evolution "seeks" anything or attempts to generate balance. Evolution is, as tons of evidence seems to show, MINDLESS.

Is learning involved in evolution?
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jan, 2018 01:05 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Because rabbits evolve to. Predator and Prey are in an evolutionary arms race. This is pretty simple. I'm not sure why you aren't getting it.

Ah.. So those foxes and rabbits of old were slower and less sly than the current versions.

But you are not taking all this to its logical extreme (as I am wont to do) .
Why have not our predators kept up with Us?
 

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