Evolutionry/religious nonsense

@farmerman,

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This is not science, it is a religion . How do you propose to "find this guy"?? Do you have a study plan or a research proposal??

Are you saying we can't assume, as a logical hypothesis, that an ancient intelligence existed to initiate the process because people with a religious world view might muck up the search?

Are you saying we can't look for an ancient entity at all then because the DI and Christians have contaminated the search with religious views.?

Is that good unbiased science?

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@brianjakub,

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Are you saying we can't assume, as a logical hypothesis, that an ancient intelligence existed to initiate the process because people with a religious world view might muck up the search?

You may say that the world began on te back of a huge turtle for all I care. Im only interested in a proposed methodology to collect evidence to support it.

ANYBODY can propose anything thats easy. SHowing supportive evidence, thats the hard part.

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@farmerman,

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You may say that the world began on te back of a huge turtle for all I care. Im only interested in a proposed methodology to collect evidence to support it.

Are you saying that, noticing the pattern that all systems operating today (whether they are man made or in nature) , resemble algorithms is similar to the huge turtle myth?

Could you please comment on the following especially the bold faced parts.

3TEST the hypothesis

Have not ever observed the pattern being broken;
1. Have not observed hardware arising on its own and ordering itself out of nothing. (Have not observed abiogenisis safe to assume we never will.) Have not observed new matter arising out of nothing, only being emitted from existing super novae and stars which are preexisting hardware and operating systems.

2. Have only observed hardware that already exists evolving to higher complexity because it is running a preexisting algorithm. (evolution by natural selection, nucleosynthesis of heavy elements.)

3. Since abiogenisis cannot be replicated or observed, and matter is necessary for gravity to exist, and we can assume gravity existed for the Big Bang to have even have happened, the Big Bang is not the point where matter was created there must be a quantum creation event similar to abiogenisis.

4. Intelligence was necessary to initiate the quantum creation event, order the hardware so the operating system could run the algorithm we are observing in operation today as the laws of physics and evolution by natural selection.

I think we agree that the algorithm of evolution by natural selection is running quite well and we have a fairly good understanding of the software running in the hardware of all living biology as a living algorithm.

Where do you think it came from? How did it get started? Do you have an alternative pattern we can observe?

What is your alternative theory to counter the need for a quantum creation event, and abiogenisis ?

If you don't think we need a quantum creation event, why not?

Quote:

Im only interested in a proposed methodology to collect evidence to support it.

ANYBODY can propose anything thats easy. SHowing supportive evidence, thats the hard part.

Hardware, operating systems, and algorithms are something we observe being created everyday. There is a tried and true method for creating operating algorithms, just ask any computer scientist. There is a sequence of events that must always be followed. Create the hardware, develop an operating system, write the algorithm, and enter the algorithm into the hardware as code.

It seems to me that you are telling me that pattern was broken when matter, the laws of physics, and life just appeared at The Big Bang event, and at abiogenisis.

What evidence do you have that a tried and true pattern that holds true since the existence of our intelligence (all hardware, operating systems, and algorithms, are created by intelligence) didn't hold true in ancient times?

I suggest we start looking in archaeology, the fossil record, ancient documents, and anywhere else there is ancient information stored, for evidence of a great intelligence, and have the great minds of the world discuss the evidence in open forums that include all points of view.

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@brianjakub,

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(I) Have not ever observed the pattern being broken;

Nor have you ever seen it in effect right?

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1. Have not observed hardware arising on its own and ordering itself out of nothing.

why default to a computer reference? You are certinly limited in your analyses. Does a piece of granite require software and hardware to be emplaced in a structural melt? How about a mass of structured C12, suspiciouly attuned to a mass of "life filaments" in sediments almost 4 B years old? Whats actually lifes minimal signature??

2.

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1. . (Have not observed abiogenisis safe to assume we never will.)

. How long you been working on that? are you part of a research team or just some guy sitting by his computer??
I dont think you present an air of competence and experience to even state this.

3.

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Have only observed hardware that already exists evolving to higher complexity because it is running a preexisting algorithm. (evolution by natural selection, nucleosynthesis of heavy elements.

. How are you providing evience that you are even in the ballpark. Y. ou hve a spectrl telescope and have been doing study of evolution occuring in human induced environmental changes

4.Since abiogenisis cannot be replicated or observed, and matter is necessary for gravity to exist, and we can assume gravity existed for the Big Bang to have even have happened, the Big Bang is not the point where matter was created there must be a quantum creation event similar to abiogenisis. These are three separate areas of investigation with three methodologies. What you present i a tangled bunch of hypotheses . When you dont want to address the facts of something it is very easy to deny its happening or, as you do, deny you see evidence. Thats not science, thats science fiction.

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4. Intelligence was necessary to initiate the quantum creation event, order the hardware so the operating system could run the algorithm we are observing in operation today as the laws of physics and evolution by natural selection.

See my above statements. Its nice to to begin with a statement that is based upon denial of the scientific method and using as a basis for your hypotheses.

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I think we agree that the algorithm of evolution by natural selection is running quite well

Youve got your work cut out for you if you really believe all this. Time to get to work and FILL IN all those assumptions and hypotheses and baseless assertions.
If you come up with anything compelling, let us know .
The Discovery Institute said it way before you and they said it much simpler.
They said that,
"Lifes too complicated to have arisen by blind evolution" (Theyre still working on it too)

None of your statements are what Id call "Scientific inquiry", they are merely assertions based on a narrow religious view where you require specific conditions to be in effect, these conditions must ,by your worldview, adhere to your big batch of hypotheses.

Ive actually looked at the PreCambrian and Paleozoic fossil record and the genetics of existing speciation events and I amazed at how random, unpredictable, and opportunistic life has presented itself.

1 Reply

@brianjakub,

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Brian,
You say:
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"order always comes from intelligence".

But that's not exactly true. Sometimes order just happens, in fact it's very common.
When a planet forms, the densest material settles at the core, the lightest at the very outer layer.
In a riverbed, the rushing water sorts gravel by size and density.
Put some water, sand, oil and styrofoam pellets in a blender, turn it on for 30 seconds then watch order come from chaos.

Brian,
I'm very interested in your response to this..

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@brianjakub,

No matter if the Universe began with the "big bang" or "big suck" I'm curious why matter collected in the patterns it has. I don't think there's any scientific explanation for this, why matter collected at those specific locations within the universal bounds. In either theory it seems all energy was condensed to a single point, apparently very small, and from this expanded rapidly as a hot gas(?) only to condense slowly in time into the regions of energy we see today. But why isn't it more uniform? Why doesn't it all look the same like you might see in the structure of a natural quartz crystal?

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@brianjakub,

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Are you saying we can't assume, as a logical hypothesis, that an ancient intelligence existed to initiate the process because people with a religious world view might muck up the search?

AS I said before, "YOU CAN CLAIM ANYTHING YOU WISH, JUST DONT CALL IT SCIENCE"

Ive asked you a few times HOW YOU GOING TO CONDUCT THIS SEARCH?????? and about which, you ve sneakily and deftly side stepped.

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@jerlands,

jerlands wrote:

No matter if the Universe began with the "big bang" or "big suck" I'm curious why matter collected in the patterns it has. I don't think there's any scientific explanation for this, why matter collected at those specific locations within the universal bounds. In either theory it seems all energy was condensed to a single point, apparently very small, and from this expanded rapidly as a hot gas(?) only to condense slowly in time into the regions of energy we see today. But why isn't it more uniform? Why doesn't it all look the same like you might see in the structure of a natural quartz crystal?

The 'BOUNCING UNIVERSE' THEORY' is kinda interesting in that it suggests the universe actually breaths.. expansion.. contraction.. expansion... contraction...

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@brianjakub,

I think your algorithm theory is interesting but I believe what farmerman is saying simply is that you haven't yet formulated the idea completely, it's not structured to where it can be perceived outside of your mind.

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@jerlands,

Observable universe

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@ekename,

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@ekename,

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@ekename,

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Quote:

"order always comes from intelligence".

But that's not exactly true. Sometimes order just happens, in fact it's very common.
When a planet forms, the densest material settles at the core, the lightest at the very outer layer.
In a riverbed, the rushing water sorts gravel by size and density.
Put some water, sand, oil and styrofoam pellets in a blender, turn it on for 30 seconds then watch order come from chaos.

That is an overly broad interpretation of 'order'. The order brought about by intelligence is that which cannot be explained by the forces of physics (gravity, electromagnetic, etc.).
The order from intelligence can be as simple as a stone wall or as complicated as a computer operating system. Try creating any of those things with a blender or a natural process.

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@Leadfoot,

Lead,
That's because the original claim was very broad: Order always comes from intelligence. I merely showed this to be false.
Natural systems can produce "order". If nature can produce crude examples, why not more complex or precise ones? How about crystals? First we have to have the crude separation of matter by density, then by chemical composition, then this is exposed to the right temperature and pressure conditions over a long period of time and voila; a chemically pure and perfect geometrical structure. And we know crystals have other properties that the chemicals that make them up don't have. They can conduct electricity in unique ways. They can conduct light in unique ways. They can sometimes convert one form of energy to another; like pressure into electricity or electricity into radio waves or light into electricity etc.
Consider the pulsar, a hugely powerful directional EM beam sweeping across the Universe. From our point of view it is a steady and regular pulse. Beep, beep, beep.... Regular in period, regular in intensity...Order.
We agree these are natural processes, right? Or do you think divine intervention is necessary for the formation of crystals?
So if crystals and pulsars can just "happen", then why not other examples of order from nature?

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The notion of order, and this ridiculous and failed analogy of hardware/operating system/algorithms are just overlays from the human mind. There is no good reason to assume that they exist in the natural world. Once again, as FM and I have been pointing out, this is not the scientific method. This is setting up a premise, and then setting out to "prove" it. The scientific method notes phenomena and data, and attempts to organize an explanation--it does not assume anything at the outset, other than that the phenomena or data exist.

The concept of entropy argues against the claim that intelligence imposes order. At the level of the entire cosmos, matter and energy tend toward disorder, not order.

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@Setanta,

As a whole, the universe tends toward disorder, agreed. But localized in space and time there are small pockets of the opposite. (Like eddies that go against a current.) Where ever there's a concentration of matter (or energy) there is a potential for some order. Life is a tiny example.

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@farmerman,

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Nor have you ever seen it in effect right?

I see the algorithm of evolution through natural selection operating today. I don't know who witnessed the initiation of that algorithm. I have witnessed the initiation of many algorithms operating. The ones initiated in historical times (where we can find how they started) have all been initiated by intelligence. I have not found evidence of or observed hardware or algorithms coming into existence without intelligence.

Do you want me to assume it happened without intelligence in prehistoric times even though it never happens today?

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why default to a computer reference? You are certinly limited in your analyses. Does a piece of granite require software and hardware to be emplaced in a structural melt? How about a mass of structured C12, suspiciouly attuned to a mass of "life filaments" in sediments almost 4 B years old?

Yes, That algorithm was running when the sediments were forming. The C 12 is suspicously tuned because it more than likely is an algorithm. (Why are you arguing for my point of view) The hardware was the particles of sediment and the atoms. The operating system were and are the laws of physics and quantum mechanics. The results from the system running are stored in the atoms of the rocks for us to observe millions of years after the algorithm quit running.

I am going to use man made hardware, operating systems, and algorithms as a pattern to follow, because they are the only ones being initiated today. Nature has been running its algorithm and recording the results in the atoms of biology and rocks for millions and billions of years.

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Whats actually lifes minimal signature??

Wiki

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Following on from chemical evolution came the initiation of biological evolution, which led to the first cells.[50] No one has yet synthesized a "protocell" using basic components with the necessary properties of life (the so-called "bottom-up-approach"). Without such a proof-of-principle, explanations have tended to focus on chemosynthesis.[112] However, some researchers work in this field, notably Steen Rasmussen and Jack W. Szostak. Others have argued that a "top-down approach" is more feasible. One such approach, successfully attempted by Craig Venter and others at J. Craig Venter Institute, involves engineering existing prokaryotic cells with progressively fewer genes, attempting to discern at which point the most minimal requirements for life are reached.[113][114][115]

A top down approach. That is reverse engineering what somebody already engineered in the past. I think that is a good idea. Once they figure out how someone engineered it the should ask:

When was life started? How was life started? What intelligence initiated it? Why was it initiated? What does the algorithm, operating system, and hardware of life tell us about the creator of it?

Like I said earlier the algorithm, operating system and hardware we observe today as the Ford motor company tells us a lot about Henry Ford and his purposes.

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1. . (Have not observed abiogenisis safe to assume we never will.)
. How long you been working on that? are you part of a research team or just some guy sitting by his computer??
I dont think you present an air of competence and experience to even state this

Here is a list from wiki of possible abiogenis without intelligent initiation. None have been shown to work.

2 Conceptual history
2.1 Spontaneous generation
2.2 Etymology
2.3 Louis Pasteur and Charles Darwin
2.4 "Primordial soup" hypothesis
2.5 Proteinoid microspheres
3 Current models
4 Chemical origin of organic molecules
4.1 Chemical synthesis
4.2 Autocatalysis
4.3 Homochirality
5 Self-enclosement, reproduction, duplication and the RNA world
5.1 Protocells
5.2 RNA world
5.2.1 Viral origins
5.3 RNA synthesis and replication
5.4 Pre-RNA world
6 Origin of biological metabolism
6.1 Iron–sulfur world
6.2 Zn-world hypothesis
6.3 Deep sea vent hypothesis
6.4 Thermosynthesis
7 Other models
7.1 Clay hypothesis
7.2 Gold's "deep-hot biosphere" model
7.3 Panspermia
7.4 Extraterrestrial organic molecules
7.5 Lipid world
7.6 Polyphosphates
7.7 PAH world hypothesis
7.8 Radioactive beach hypothesis
7.9 Thermodynamic dissipation
7.10 Multiple genesis
7.11 Fluctuating hydrothermal pools on volcanic islands or proto-continents
7.12 Information theory

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. How are you providing evience that you are even in the ballpark. Y. ou hve a spectrl telescope and have been doing study of evolution occuring in human induced environmental changes

The evidence is obvious in the patterns, and lack of success in producing life and complex order without intelligently created hardware runnign an algorithm on a operating system .

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4.Since abiogenisis cannot be replicated or observed, and matter is necessary for gravity to exist, and we can assume gravity existed for the Big Bang to have even have happened, the Big Bang is not the point where matter was created there must be a quantum creation event similar to abiogenisis. These are three separate areas of investigation with three methodologies. What you present i a tangled bunch of hypotheses . When you dont want to address the facts of something it is very easy to deny its happening or, as you do, deny you see evidence. Thats not science, thats science fiction.

They are tangled because, they shouldn't be separate. All these hypothesis need to be combined to form one theory of everything. The pattern suggests each one is an algorithm operating in hardware that needs intelligence to successfully be initiated.

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Quote:
4. Intelligence was necessary to initiate the quantum creation event, order the hardware so the operating system could run the algorithm we are observing in operation today as the laws of physics and evolution by natural selection.
See my above statements. Its nice to to begin with a statement that is based upon denial of the scientific method and using as a basis for your hypotheses.

I think you are ignoring the scientific method:

Establish a hypothesis from observed patterns in data that has been observed.

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Quote:
I think we agree that the algorithm of evolution by natural selection is running quite well
Youve got your work cut out for you if you really believe all this. Time to get to work and FILL IN all those assumptions and hypotheses and baseless assertions.
If you come up with anything compelling, let us know .
The Discovery Institute said it way before you and they said it much simp

I have compiled the evidence and I am in the process of writing a book. I am not working towards a doctorate in these fields I am an agricultural engineer. Why aren't people writing thesises on the subject. Could it be if anyone in those fields attempted to write a thesis on this subject they would be ostracized because of an anti ID bias in the academic community.

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@TomTomBinks,

Brian Quote:
Order always comes from intelligence.
TomTomBinks quote:
I am very interested in your response to this:

Farmer man:
But that’s not exactly true. Sometimes order just happens, it is very common. When a planet forms, the densest material settles at the core, the lightest. . . Put some water, sand, oil and styrofoam pellets in a blender, then watch order come out of chaos.

Brianjakub replies:
The matter in all these systems are the hardware that is running an operating system called the laws of physics. Matter (the hardware) is the key. The hardware has a built in operating system that always existed since matter was created called the laws of physicis. Gravity nor any other force could not exist before matter. Matter could not stay in existence without the Higgs field. So logically the Higgs field (some sort of structure to empty space we observe as dark energy and dark matter) was the first thing that had to be created so the hardware of matter had someplace to exist and something to hold it together and provide a source and carrier for the forces of physics. A river, a planet, a blender are all small separate algorithms running in their own separate mini universe of hardware compiling data and storing it in rock sediment in planets and river beds and whatever comes out of the blender.

The question is where did the matter and laws of physics come from if the structure in the Higgs field is necessary for matter, and matter is necessary for gravity, and gravity is necessary the Big Bang which supposed created all the matter by an initial gravitational crunch?

I suggest Somebody created the Higgs field inserted matter into it, (or created matter from it in a quantum creation that established the hardware and operating system) in a perfect universe where all the forces of physics were the same force, and all the constants were 1. The Big Bang introduced entropy into the universe (introduced the algorithm we now observe running including entropic gravity) and is the transition event to the imperfect inflating universe, with the constants of physics and forces we are observing today.

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@TomTomBinks,

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As a whole the universe tends toward disorder, agreed. But localized in space small pockets of the opposite. (Like eddies that go against the current.) Wherever ther is a concentration of matter (or energy) there is a potential for some order.

A localized space by definition is establishment of order. Matter is energy in order. Life is matter in so much order it is a “self replicating” evolving algorithm.

Even eddies need hardware to operate in so we can observe them. Somebody put a dome around our universe and created a small pocket of order which contains even smaller pockets of order called matter.

1 Reply

Evolutionry/religious nonsense

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