Me Too

@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

I see there's an issue of free speech. Yet I see everybody is posting as often as they like on here. I don't see that anybody is being censored. I noticed a month or so back that this thread will lie fallow. But as soon as something supportive of MeToo gets posted the two I ignored flood the thread to stifle any positive words. Have at it, dudes.

Edgar, you tried to start a dialogue about sexual harassment, you even offered an experience you endured. Sadly, this thread became dominated by males who ridiculed and diminished every person (male and female) who was stupid enough to bare their souls. You did a good thing, unfortunately a few people were panicked.........I think I understand why...no one want to believe that there are predators ...it's a horrible thought.............................but it happens,

I must tell you how much I appreciate the thread you started.......it was a generous and compassionate thing to do.........You started a thread for survivors, and it doesn't really matter how many apologists showed up....the important thing is that the apologists revealed themselves.

When someone tells you who they are, Believe them.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
The examples I provided shows how catcalling can turn dangerous, even deadly for women.

So what do you propose we do about it?

Maybe stop screaming disrespectful insults at women you see on the street????? Is that too much to ask............what would happen if the same creepy guys cat called little boys??????? I raised boys, you and I would be chasing those perverts down the street with a baseball bat.

But when it's girls, or really young women.,.........you can't possibly think they get giddy with pleasure when creepy men shout out obscenities and make offensive hand and tongue gestures..... it scares the living crap out of them....does that seem ok with you?

1 Reply

@glitterbag,

Quote:

I don't think she is denying you 'free speech'.

Indeed. The discussion is not about my rights but about cat-calling and whether it is illegal or immoral. I pointed out that, as I understand the word, it would be legally protected as free speech. Neptune countered that cat-calling sometimes leads to murder. What's your take on it?

And no, "women" are not who I mean by "a gang of thumb monkeys". Those come in all genders. In this particular case I had a bunch of male monkeys in mind.

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@glitterbag,

Quote:

but every so often you mention how much more accomadationg French women are to unwelcome grouping or filthy comments from strangers....

Where does that come from? When did I ever say such a thing???

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@glitterbag,

I never in my entire life cat-called anybody. I am a very shy man, truly, in these matters. I only speak dirty to my wife and can count on one hand's fingers the number of women I ever hit on. Those were the girls I really liked. Took me months in all cases.

I'm not guilty of cat-calling, nor even of any significant womanizing. Never was. I'm incapable of it, even if I wanted to. Sorry if that messes with your idea of a French man. As a matter of fact it goes against a lot of French galanterie social programming.

As a result, the only times I ever got laid was when a woman asked me out. This includes my wife; God bless her daredevil honing on little me at that bar 27 years ago. It was clumsy and more than a little vulgar but it did the trick.

This brings me to an important point, IMO: the first step is the hardest. Someone got to do it but it's hard. People like me who rely on others to propose to them, because we don't dare do it ourselves, we often have a degree of tolerance for unwanted advances. In short, if it was not for a few girls that 'cat-called' me once in a while, I would never had any sex. So I'm grateful to them, and that extends to those who were not to my liking.

There is a social and personal cost in banning the expression of sexual desire. Beware what you wish for.

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I never in my entire life cat-called anybody. I am a very shy man

So the only reason you haven’t is because you’re too much of a coward.

You make plenty of excuses for those who do abuse women though, in fact you do little else.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

I love you too, Izzy.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I love you too, Izzy.

Back Off Olivier!!!

Izzy is MINE. Don't be messing with my bitches.

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Well, *this* took a turn.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

This brings me to an important point, IMO: the first step is the hardest. Someone got to do it but it's hard. People like me who rely on others to propose to them, because we don't dare do it ourselves, we often have a degree of tolerance for unwanted advances. In short, if it was not for a few girls that 'cat-called' me once in a while, I would never had any sex. So I'm grateful to them, and that extends to those who were not to my liking.

The significant portion of your statement is the "gratitude" you feel about being sexually exploited. You seem to think it's some badge of honor or a catalyst for something bigger, something better. Your're flattered, emboldened, allowed to feel wanted and desirable. For a vast majority of men, it isn't a frightening experience.

For a vast majority of women, it isn't like that. Not at all.

If a woman chooses to ignore being catcalled, she runs the risk of escalation. If a woman chooses to react, she runs the risk of escalation. There isn't a winning strategy to remain safe. There's always risk involved. It cannot be foreseen when or where that escalation will occur.

The thing that got to me is the fact you seem to suggest everyone should be "grateful" for the opportunity to be abused. I'm not "grateful" for being an object of unwanted harassment that has potential for harm.

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@maxdancona,

Rest assured that my love for Izzy will forever remain platonic...

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@neptuneblue,

Your claim about "vast majority of women" is an exaggeration. It simply true. Of course, it depends on the specific behavior... the "vast majority" of men and women think that asking for a sexual favor is inappropriate. You can't say that about "wolf-whistling".

https://www.economist.com/img/b/1280/1536/85/sites/default/files/20171125_WOC925_0.png

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Who are the respondents? What's the breakdown of male to female answers? Provide a link to the cite, please.

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@neptuneblue,

Quote:

sexually exploited

In a consensual sex scenario, the 'exploitation' is mutual.

Quote:

you seem to suggest

You seem to misunderstand people quite a lot. I hope it's just a lack of wit, because the alternative is that you are constantly misrepresenting what I am saying, something I have little patience for. Just so you know.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Ah, it's the ole "questioning of the female intellect" act.

Great...

I've asked for clarification about your expressed gratitude towards being sexually exploited. I see you've amended your answer to include the word "consensual." What you've done is change the meaning from "the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work" to "existing or made by mutual consent without an act of writing."

*Merriam-Webster

When you have to change your answer to fit the narrative, there is something wrong with your premise.

1 Reply

@neptuneblue,

It’s not really about me, is it? What you improperly called (your words) my “sexual exploitation” was just an example to illustrate the point that consensual sex depends on someone making the first step and expressing desire to some other person. So some room has to be made for that in society...

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

It’s not really about me, is it? What you improperly called (your words) my “sexual exploitation” was just an example to illustrate the point that consensual sex depends on someone making the first step and expressing desire to some other person. So some room has to be made for that in society...

I agree with you Olivier, but I think it is more than this.

What Neptune is talking about is making severe restrictions on sexual behavior in society in general. This has been tried many times, the Puritans tried it, the Victorian era, the Catholic church.

Of course society has to make some distinctions between which behaviors are acceptable, which are socially unacceptable and which are illegal.

I think most people would draw the line at behavior that is physically violent, threatening or abusing power in a workplace. Almost everyone (men and women) agrees that this should be illegal.

As long as MeToo is making flirting illegal, it will be ignored by the majority of people. That is why MeToo is no longer taken seriously by the "vast majority of women".

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@maxdancona,

I agree there’s a puritanical streak under this. But you are short-selling Metoo if you think it’s just a fad or a hashtag. That may be what you wish it was. But the way I see it, it’s not and should not be a women vs men fight.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I see you haven't provided a link to your graph. Please consider doing so, as I'd like to see the context of the accompanying article.

As for "severe restrictions" you're playing up hysteria and downplaying harassment.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You are short-selling Metoo if you think it’s just a fad or a hashtag. That may be what you wish it was. But the way I see it, it’s not and should not be a women vs men fight.

I want to separate the hash tag #MeToo from the general trend of social progress. They are two different things.

In the US at least, the #MeToo hashtag has been highjacked by a specific political ideological movement. They are pushing Tarana Burke's original intent far further than she is comfortable with, and she has said so.

It would be good if we can keep the progress, and reject the extreme politics. I am afraid the hashtag may already be ruined by the politics.

1 Reply

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