14
   

Me Too

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Sun 14 Jan, 2018 03:56 pm
With any great movement some innocents may get hurt, but consider how many victims were ignored or punished before Me Too. It's a trade off I don't think we can avoid.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Sun 14 Jan, 2018 04:03 pm
@Olivier5,
So now it's all cooked up by Carwyn Jones.

You don't know any of the facts but instead of waiting to see what they are you let your imagination run wild. You've made your mind up, facts be damned and the conclusions you've drawn are those that BillRM, Hawkeye and Max would have drawn. They don't care about evidence either not when they can make **** up.
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Sun 14 Jan, 2018 04:04 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

With any great movement some innocents may get hurt, but consider how many victims were ignored or punished before Me Too. It's a trade off I don't think we can avoid.


Said every totalitarian leader ever. Change the term "Me Too" to "America First" and you sound like Trump.

One you justify hurting people to achieve your political goals, you can justify anything.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 01:23 am
@izzythepush,
I don't know what the other guys would have said. I cam to that conclusion studying the facts of the matter as widely reported in the press, and i suspect that's what happened. The truth will come out in any case. Watch my words.

The important point to remember from this case is that sometimes, such an allegation can be instrumentalized to throw mud at political oponents. HENCE the importance of due process and the need for safeguards against difamation. It's bound to happen more and more if not checked.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 01:45 am
@ehBeth,
I've very happy about #MeToo as well. I'm just flagging that it can be easily instrumentalized by politicians to get rid of their opponents. It's important for the sake of the movement that some safegard is found. Otherwise it will undermine the legitimacy of #MeToo. People will stop believing the majority of testimonies because a minority has lied.

I'm not worried about a backslash, don't see that in the cards. I'm worried of massive credibility loss if too many shody works are allowed to happen under its guise...
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 01:49 am
@ehBeth,
Quote:
then how did you decide innocence was the way to go?

Innocence from what, exactly?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 02:03 am
@Olivier5,
The truth will come out which is why it's important not to rush to judgement. That's what you've done, and because we know very little of the details, most of it's based on your own wild imaginings.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 02:22 am
@izzythepush,
A lot of the details are in fact already known.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 03:28 am
This was posted by Walter on another thread. I expand the quotes a bit:

In tribune to daily Libération, Catherine Deneuve apologises to sex attack victims after #MeToo controversy

Quotes:

“Yes, I signed that petition, however, it seems absolutely necessary today to underline my disagreement with the way certain signatories have individually assumed the right to expand upon it in the media, distorting the spirit of the text."

"Nothing in this text says that sexual harassment is a good thing, otherwise I wouldn't have signed it."

"Yes, I love freedom. I don't like this feature of modern times where everyone feels entitled to juge others, to condemn others. We live in a time when a single allegation on social media can lead to punishment, sacking, and quite often mediatic lynching."

"Who can assure me that there won't be manipulations or low blows? That there will be no suicide of innocent?"

http://www.liberation.fr/debats/2018/01/14/catherine-deneuve-rien-dans-le-texte-ne-pretend-que-le-harcelement-a-du-bon-sans-quoi-je-ne-l-aurais_1622399
izzythepush
 
  2  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 04:29 am
@Olivier5,
Not enough for a reasonable person to reach a conclusion.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 06:59 am
@izzythepush,
I didn't reach a definitive conclusion yet.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 07:31 am
@Olivier5,
Really? Certainly sounded like one.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 07:42 am
@izzythepush,
I presented it as a suspicion, an idea. You keep trying to misunderstand me, as if your life or self-esteem depended on it.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 07:50 am
@Olivier5,
Don't talk bollocks. You've been posting numerous articles about Sargeants innocence and throwing mud. If you're having second thoughts you could least be honest about it.

If anyone's having self esteem issues it's you, which is why you brought the subject up, it's called transference.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 08:03 am
@izzythepush,
You couldn't stay away from insults for more than a few posts, huh? Bye bye now... :-)
Olivier5
 
  0  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 08:06 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
With any great movement some innocents may get hurt, but consider how many victims were ignored or punished before Me Too. It's a trade off I don't think we can avoid.

Of course we can avoid sacrificing innocents to a good cause. We can and we must, because a cause that sacrifices innocents doesn't stay good very long.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 08:26 am
@Olivier5,
More transference, you were the one who started with the insults. I just responded in kind.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 08:29 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
" Who can assure me that there won't be manipulations or low blows? That there will be no suicide of innocent?"


interesting

I never noticed her commenting on the suicides of people who were sexually assaulted.
Olivier5
 
  0  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 09:12 am
@ehBeth,
Really? Have you followed her carrier closely? She's been a strong woman and a feminist forever. You could do worse than read her latest letter, where she does speaks for victims a lot.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Mon 15 Jan, 2018 09:24 am
I think Ms Deneuve has made a fundamental error about "Me Too". As I see it, the movement is not at all about clumsy attempts at dating at the bar or groping by strangers on the train, it is about the abuse of women by men who are in a position of power over them, limiting their recourse. It is also not really about sex, but about power. Franken didn't grope those women taking photos with him because he thought they might want to have sex with them. He wanted to send a message, I'm in control, you're not. As one of Franken's accusers said "“I was stunned and incredulous. I felt demeaned. I felt put in my place.” That's what a lot of this is about.

As to poor men getting crushed by a mob mentality, it usually works the other way. When the first accuser comes out, everyone rushes out to defend the guy because he's such a great guy and he's a genius and he's done so much. The woman - well, she's a gold digger, no talent, looking for her fifteen minutes of fame. If that is all there is, the man usually walks away unharmed, saying "I don't remember it that way" or some other dismissive comment. The woman is trampled. The real case in point here is Woody Allen. Allen has been accused of child molestation by the person he molested.
Quote:
What’s your favorite Woody Allen movie? Before you answer, you should know: when I was seven years old, Woody Allen took me by the hand and led me into a dim, closet-like attic on the second floor of our house. He told me to lay on my stomach and play with my brother’s electric train set. Then he sexually assaulted me. He talked to me while he did it, whispering that I was a good girl, that this was our secret, promising that we’d go to Paris and I’d be a star in his movies. I remember staring at that toy train, focusing on it as it traveled in its circle around the attic. To this day, I find it difficult to look at toy trains.

For as long as I could remember, my father had been doing things to me that I didn’t like. I didn’t like how often he would take me away from my mom, siblings and friends to be alone with him. I didn’t like it when he would stick his thumb in my mouth. I didn’t like it when I had to get in bed with him under the sheets when he was in his underwear. I didn’t like it when he would place his head in my naked lap and breathe in and breathe out. I would hide under beds or lock myself in the bathroom to avoid these encounters, but he always found me. These things happened so often, so routinely, so skillfully hidden from a mother that would have protected me had she known, that I thought it was normal. I thought this was how fathers doted on their daughters. But what he did to me in the attic felt different. I couldn’t keep the secret anymore.

I don't know either person and I can't comment on the merits of the case, but a lot of people are completely willing to jump in and support Allen even though their knowledge is as lacking as mine. I know that passage gives me pause.

The "Me Too" stories we've seen are not he said, she said. They are "he said, she said, she said, she said, she said..." Even then the system rallies to support the powerful man. 46% of Alabama voted for Roy Moore and a number of people publicly vilified his accusers. Fox News and Congress routinely hushed up accusations with payments. The risk to the women is much higher than to the men. Gretchen Carlson may have finally shown the spotlight on Roger Alies, but she still lost her position at Fox News. The typical story we hear is about women coming out after they leave their jobs. That is where the power dynamic comes in. The risk to the man (for the first allegation) is a little embarrassment, the woman is risking her career. When Dan Harmon acknowledged that he sexually harassed Megan Ganz, remember that she was forced off a show for which she was winning awards. When Catherine Deneuve says she is empowered to take action when she is groped on the train, that she is not a victim, she is missing the whole movement.

Even the legal system supports the men. We've all heard about agreements that forbid women from discussing allegations. No prosecutor will bring a "he said, she said" case to trial. One sad story, a woman who worked for me in a previous job showed up at my office a couple of months after I moved on from supervising her and said "I just had my husband arrested." I was completely shocked to learn that he had been beating the crap out of her on a regular basis. We all saw the nice pictures on her desk from the fancy honeymoon in Rome (her husband was from a wealthy family), right beside the diploma for her masters in engineering and thought everything was fine. I spent the next hour walking the parking lot with her and letting her talk. She ended up recording him abusing her. With the recording in hand, the police were all over it. His lawyer moved in, asking her to accept a sealed agreement to spare her the trauma of a trial. It turns out, that was what the guy's last wife did. She kept quiet. When she heard about the woman in my story, she came out and said "me too". When people say that the accusers kept working with their assailants to dismiss their accusations, I know that sometimes that is what you have to do if you don't want to lose things you hold very dear. It shouldn't be that way.

"Me too" is giving a voice to women who felt they had no options. It's showing them they aren't alone, they aren't powerless, others will defend them (even as some revile them). When these men lose the positions that allowed them to abuse others (if they lose there positions), it is not because the women tore them down, it is because of their own actions. Somewhere there is a person in a position of power who is thinking twice about abusing a subordinate, and a subordinate who is completely oblivious to the near miss. That's a win.
 

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