3
   

I want the US to lose the war in Iraq

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:03 pm
Thanks Joe
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:07 pm
It still doesn't make your statement anything more than an opinion, and one based upon... what, exactly?

That no patriot could ever believe that his country would be better off losing a war than winning it?

Does this factor in the price of winning, the effects of winning, the price of losing, the effects of losing? It does not.

A hint for you, it's a grey world out there; not everyone is divided into neat little categories such as 'patriot' and 'terrorist' and 'traitor.' You can love and support your country while at the same time thinking that it is moving in the wrong direction, and hope that it figures it out before things get out of hand.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:11 pm
Sure .. love your country, think it's moving in the wrong direction, oppose the war, wish our soldiers would get home as soon as possible, want to minimize the loss of life on both sides .... fine.

Want your country to lose a war .... NOT A PATRIOT.




And, yes, that's my opinion. I understand yours is different.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:19 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Interesting take, Dys. I neither added nor subtracted anything, btw. That is the entire definition at the first place I looked. See for yourself.

My favorite part was: "as when the processes of law appear inadequate". Idea


Getting off this nick picking of words for a minute.

So you think the US has the right to decide "when the process of law appear inadequate"? What gives us that right?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:24 pm
Quote:
Sure .. love your country, think it's moving in the wrong direction, oppose the war, wish our soldiers would get home as soon as possible, want to minimize the loss of life on both sides .... fine.

Want your country to lose a war .... NOT A PATRIOT.




And, yes, that's my opinion. I understand yours is different.


Naturally, opinions differ. But let's look at the prospect, here:

We lose the war in Iraq (let's say they collapse into civil war, and we are forced to pull out) and what happens? Our economy collapses? We are invaded and taken over? Hardly. Instead, we learn a little f*cking humility, and it's about time.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:25 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
You CANNOT be patriotic if you wish your country to lose.

Sure you can, if you think that losing is in the best interests of your country.
Cycloptichorn

<sigh>

Under your theory (and Joe's), the sole difference between a traitor and a patriot is an affirmative act.

There's something to be said about traitors and patriotism, and the possibility of patriotic traitors.

For example - I think it was Granta that had a most interesting article on this man - but I'm not sure if I'll be able to find it back. The man who was vilified for joining the Germans in WW2 and leading troops of his own against his own country.

The man was, it should be pointed out, Russian. He had just witnessed the most atrocious decade in the history of his country. Stalin had become responsible for the death of more Russians than any person in the history of the country - or, for that matter, than any person in the modern history of mankind, if not ever. The terror had reached its very apex just three or four years before.

He was a military man, and had witnessed in horror how one of Stalin's last pre-war purges involved the execution of the overwhelming majority of the Soviet army's commanders.

The country, of course, had not seen any open or honest reporting on foreign affairs in decades. No samizdat back then either. So the only thing a Soviet citizen had to go on in estimating the virtue of outsiders (whether Hitler or Churchill) was the Soviet propaganda, which was not to be believed by any sane man.

And so he found himself looking at an enemy army that was to march (or already marching - not sure, by heart, about the exact chronology) its way to Russia, the worth of which was still, for a Soviet citizen locked off from objective information, arguably hard to tell, but which was clearly potentially able to actually topple Stalin's order.

So what'he do? He hooked up with the enemy diplomats, and became the military leader of an army of "free" Russians - an army of defected Soviet soldiers. And led it to fight the Red Army right alongside the advancing Germans. And long after still was remotely reasonable, he clutched to the illusion that the Germans would eventually allow the replacement of the Soviet regime by an anti-communist Russian government, neutral or friendly to, but independent from the Reich.

The story ended badly, of course.

Now, it can't get more murky than this, can it? The man who bravely rebelled against the most murderous regime of (modern) history thus far, did so by defecting from his country's army - and by aiding and abetting a regime that was just as murderous, and at least as vile.

Traitor? Patriot?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and call him both ...
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:26 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Sure .. love your country, think it's moving in the wrong direction, oppose the war, wish our soldiers would get home as soon as possible, want to minimize the loss of life on both sides .... fine.

Want your country to lose a war .... NOT A PATRIOT.




And, yes, that's my opinion. I understand yours is different.


We have already won the war. bush said so. What some may want the country to do now is loose the occupation. I doubt very many people want the country to loose the occupation either. I want the country to get out now or soon after the election regardless of the shape it is in because we have no business being there trying to manipulate the country into the outcome that we want and that is what we are doing or trying unsuccessfully to do at any rate. So in that sense, yes I want the country to lose and if that makes me unpatriotic, ok, I am not patriotic. So what.

I don't want our soldiers to die but neither did I want their soldiers and their people to die.

But the war was not a moral war and we should not have gone.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:30 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Sure .. love your country, think it's moving in the wrong direction, oppose the war, wish our soldiers would get home as soon as possible, want to minimize the loss of life on both sides .... fine.

Want your country to lose a war .... NOT A PATRIOT.




And, yes, that's my opinion. I understand yours is different.


Naturally, opinions differ. But let's look at the prospect, here:

We lose the war in Iraq (let's say they collapse into civil war, and we are forced to pull out) and what happens? Our economy collapses? We are invaded and taken over? Hardly. Instead, we learn a little f*cking humility, and it's about time.

Cycloptichorn


So you want the US to lose this war so it will be humiliated? Is that right?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:31 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Sure .. love your country, think it's moving in the wrong direction, oppose the war, wish our soldiers would get home as soon as possible, want to minimize the loss of life on both sides .... fine.

Want your country to lose a war .... NOT A PATRIOT.

Wouldn't that depend upon what a person means by "lose?"

For instance, let's say that an American wants the US to win the war in Iraq. But, in his opinion, the only way to win is to exterminate all Iraqis, preferably by the cruelest means possible. Now, because that American wants the country to win, does that make him a "patriot?"
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:32 pm
revel wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Sure .. love your country, think it's moving in the wrong direction, oppose the war, wish our soldiers would get home as soon as possible, want to minimize the loss of life on both sides .... fine.

Want your country to lose a war .... NOT A PATRIOT.




And, yes, that's my opinion. I understand yours is different.


We have already won the war. bush said so. What some may want the country to do now is loose the occupation. I doubt very many people want the country to loose the occupation either. I want the country to get out now or soon after the election regardless of the shape it is in because we have no business being there trying to manipulate the country into the outcome that we want and that is what we are doing or trying unsuccessfully to do at any rate. So in that sense, yes I want the country to lose and if that makes me unpatriotic, ok, I am not patriotic. So what.

...


Congratulations. The first step is to admit you have a problem ....
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:36 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Sure .. love your country, think it's moving in the wrong direction, oppose the war, wish our soldiers would get home as soon as possible, want to minimize the loss of life on both sides .... fine.

Want your country to lose a war .... NOT A PATRIOT.

Wouldn't that depend upon what a person means by "lose?"


I suppose that's true.

joefromchicago wrote:
For instance, let's say that an American wants the US to win the war in Iraq. But, in his opinion, the only way to win is to exterminate all Iraqis, preferably by the cruelest means possible. Now, because that American wants the country to win, does that make him a "patriot?"


I believe so.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:40 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Sure .. love your country, think it's moving in the wrong direction, oppose the war, wish our soldiers would get home as soon as possible, want to minimize the loss of life on both sides .... fine.

Want your country to lose a war .... NOT A PATRIOT.

And, yes, that's my opinion. I understand yours is different.


i have to agree with tico here.

when you "lose a war", you aren't just failing to win a game. "losing the war" doesn't serve solely to prove bush wrong. "losing the war" will not make the rest of the world love us again.

"losing the war" is counted up in the loss of american lives. other lives as well.

as much as i believe george bush deserves serious political punishment and hope that he will leave office in a manner reflecting his irresponisible
actions, i will not purchase his humiliation at the cost of our kids lives in iraq.

it's better to hope that our military is able to keep a lid on things long enough to get the iraq elections over, toss the keys to baghdad and get the troops out of there. quick.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:43 pm
revel wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Interesting take, Dys. I neither added nor subtracted anything, btw. That is the entire definition at the first place I looked. See for yourself.

My favorite part was: "as when the processes of law appear inadequate". Idea


Getting off this nick picking of words for a minute.

So you think the US has the right to decide "when the process of law appear inadequate"? What gives us that right?

Everyone makes that distinction for themselves, Revel. The thing that separates the U.S. is our unparalleled capability of effecting change. While our tremendous strength doesn't make us more "right", it does make us more culpable when we ignore "wrong".
(Sadly, we do this more often then not. But let's take the politics out to elucidate my point)

Example:
If a weakling watches a bully beat up another weakling, knowing that if he interfered, he'd get beaten up himself... should he still try to stop the unjust beating? Perhaps.

If the toughest of the tough is in that same situation and he chooses to watch the bully beat up the weakling, knowing that if he interfered, he'd probably succeed in stopping the unjust beating... wouldn't he be almost as guilty as the bully if he didn't interfere? I say yes.

The ability to help stop an injustice carries with it some responsibility to do so. If you don't believe me, go rent the Jodie Foster movie; The Accused.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 01:57 pm
Quote:
"losing the war" is counted up in the loss of american lives. other lives as well.


And, this is my point, exactly. We may lose even if we win, depending on how many have to die to achieve the 'objective.' If the price of the war is many thousands more deaths (I really don't care if it is Americans of foreigners who die, a life is a life to me) then it simply isn't worth it.

Wanting your country to 'lose' (not achieve the objective) can be based upon pragmatism. It is not an indicator of traitorism; the REAL traitors to the country are the ones who lied their way into this war in the first place.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:00 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:

The ability to help stop an injustice carries with it some responsibility to do so.


Here I fully agree.

(You certainly know that, Bill:
injustice:
1 : absence of justice : violation of right or of the rights of another :
2 : an unjust act or deed :
)
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:02 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Vigilantism; like the definition reads isn't of itself a dirty word. In the absence of effective law enforcement, I believe it can be a noble pursuit.
Example: 4 men are sitting on the porch sucking down some beers when they hear a scream from down the block. They race to see what it is. A woman had been attacked and her purse stolen. In this section of South Central Los Angeles, they know it will take the police 30 minutes or more to respond. So, they take off down the alley after the fiend themselves.

At this juncture they have become de facto vigilantes. Is this a bad thing? No.

The problem with the analogy you propose is that it describes an absence of all law enforcement. This does not apply to the situation concerning the 'law' (the UN resolutions) that was to be enforced re: Iraq.

Let's take one step back. The resolutions called for Iraq to do a number of things; in the absence of complying, the authors (the law-enforcers, say) granted themselves the right to apply an unspecified "all necessary means" to make him comply. Right?

The resolutions never explicitly prescribed what means would be necessary or which means, specifically, would be resorted to - nowhere do they actually specifically raise the threat of war if Iraq didn't comply. The authors made sure of that, because the one thing they did not want was a triggering mechanism that would automatically legitimize a resort to war (this was the whole problem the US had with the existing resolutions, which is why it tried to get through a resolution that did explicitly tie the response of military intervention to further acts of non-compliance). No, instead of specifying what it would do in response to Iraqi non-compliance, the UN merely prescribed that "all necessary means" would be undertaken.

Now, what was "necessary"? Thats where the whole disagreement came in. The majority of the UN and its Security Council figured that the means currently in place - no-flying zones, safe areas, boycott, weapon inspections that had just started up again, and the threat of military force in the future - were sufficient to eventually enforce compliance. They saw improvement (the inspectors had been let in, and had found no evidence as of yet that Iraq did actually still posess weapons that significantly transgressed the resolution's criteria) - they said - look; we are applying "all means necessary". If this doesn't work after all, we'll look at it again. But for now, we consider no further means to be "necessary" yet.

Returning to your analogy, there was thus a presence of law enforcement. There was no absence of it. A range of punitive and limiting measures were in place re: Iraq. So what you are left with, using the definition you brought, is arguing that there was an absence of effective law enforcement.

You can do that, of course. In fact, (most of) you have been arguing exactly that - not that the UN members were doing nothing, but that it wasnt proving effective. OK. So you need to adapt your analogy to fit what your argument really is - it wouldn't be honest otherwise.

Ergo. 4 men are sitting on the porch sucking down some beers when they hear a scream from down the block. They race to see what it is. A woman had been attacked and her purse stolen. The police is there. They've cornered the assailant in a plot of his own. Cops have circled the assailant, they're not letting anyone get to him, their helicopter is flying over and occasionally they'll jab at him and take something from him. Presently they've asked to search him. He's said OK, search me, but the cops are not finding any purse or assault weapon. The 4 men, on the other hand, are absolutely sure he has it somewhere, and that he's just effectively hiding it from the cops somewhere. The 4 men are also not at all happy with the way the cops are going about it. They're so timid! They just let that bozo order them around! This way they're never going to find that weapon, let alone put that guy behind bars where he belongs. And if this goes on like this forever, who knows when the boor's gonna assault another passer-by again - or worse, much worse, who knows. They've seen some shady guys hover around the area, guys that have hit upon those 4 men themselves pretty badly not long ago - who knows that guy won't secretly slip his assault weapon to those shady guys?

The 4 men have seen enough. They know enough. Something needs to be done. And its not like they're gonna wait around any longer for those namby-pamby cops to do what it takes.

So, the 4 men get their Uzis out, take off down the alley, right past the squirming cops, and boom! blow that plot of land around the guy to smithereens. Hey, coupla kids and nearby houses got hurt, but presently they appear back out of the smoke, triumphantly holding the assailant by his neck.

At this juncture they have most definitely become vigilantes. Is this a bad thing?

Err, yeah. Razz
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:02 pm
I know my own nation best. That's why I despise it the most. And know and love my own people, too, the swine. I'm a patriot. A dangerous man
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:06 pm
And that, I dare say, was my finest post in a week Razz
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:12 pm
bill I saw the movie and the situation of our deciding to invade Iraq and the circumstances in the movie "accused" are in no ways alike.

furthermore it don't address what you said yourself about us deciding who is applying the process of the rule of law right.

The way it would be alike is this:

Let's say a bunch of guys stood around and watched and even encouraged on someone getting raped and then later those did the raping were punished and they served their time and they were let go under certain conditions. They have to meet with the parole board ever so often and things like that. Now lets say that some people on the parole decide that the guys were not meeting up with their conditions that were set forth and rather than proving their case to the rest of the members they decided on their own that the rest of the members were not "applying the process of the rule of law" right and just decided on their own to punish the guys who they feel were not meeting their conditions. They may be wrong or they may right, but they wrong regardless because they had no right to make that decision on their own without the full parole board to vote on it. They could not then justify themselves by saying the the rest of the parole board were not applying the process of the rule of right therefore they had to do it for them because they do not have authority to make that verdict on the rest of the parole board. They would have to take the rest of the parole board to court and prove that they did not apply the process of the rule of right and then a decision would be made from there on handle the current case of the guys who are allegedly in violation of their parole board.

Don't you people ever watch Law and Order? :wink:
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2005 02:20 pm
I think the US has already lost the war regardless of the outcome.
....considering Bushco. declared the war over long, long ago.
0 Replies
 
 

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