3
   

I want the US to lose the war in Iraq

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 11:20 pm
dlowan wrote:
Does it really? Can you expand on that?

Let's take a look again at what Asherman said:
    Iraq is becoming a "war of attrition". Wars of attrition tend to be long, and dirty. They are winnable, and the odds are almost always with the side with the greatest resources. Irregular wars are often wars of attrition, and there have been many of them. Our Civil War is an example, as was the American Revolution and Vietnam. The keys to winning are: superior resources (population, production, size and quality of the military, wealth, and above all the Will to see the contest to its conclusion. Time is indeed a major factor, because as time increases the political pressure to surrender increases … on both sides. The basic formula is: Victory/Time=(E - C+R)*W:: (A - C+R)*W, where "E" is the enemies total resources, and "A" are the allies total resources. "C" is the losses (often expressed as rate of). "R" is the degree to which losses can be recovered, or made up for. As time increases the "R" generally decreases proportionately. "W" is the least precise element because it is the Will to continue. If one side begins to believe it is defeated, it is. The Will to victory is inverse between contending groups. That is as one side loses faith and hope, the other side's dedication to the struggle increases. The equation is a ratio between the contending groups.
First, on a purely historical level, the claim that "the odds are almost always with the side with the greatest resources" is demonstrably wrong. Were it otherwise, then not only the US should have defeated the North Vietnamese, the French should have as well.

Moreover, on a logical level, the formula makes no sense. First, let's take the statement: "Time is indeed a major factor, because as time increases the political pressure to surrender increases … on both sides." If time has an identical effect on both sides, then time isn't a major factor -- it isn't a factor at all. On the other hand, if time has disparate effects on both sides, then the formula does not take this fact into account.

Second, let's look at the formula: "(E-C+R) where E = enemy's total resources, C is the losses (often expressed as a rate of) and R is the rate that losses can be recovered" (the formula is identical for "allies" as for "enemy"). Presumably, all of these factors are ascertainable and can be expressed in raw numbers, although both E and R would likely need to be estimated. There is, however, no point in expressing R as a rate, since it is not used as a multiplicand in the formula. The sum of (E-C+R) is then multiplied by W, which is "the will to continue."

Unlike E, C, and R, W is neither ascertainable ex ante nor can it be expressed in raw numbers. The will to continue can only be ascertained ex post: i.e. we can only know a combatant's will to continue by how long it continued, not by how long we estimate it will continue (any estimate, especially of an insurgency's will to continue, will undoubtedly be wrong). This leaves us with two possibilities for the value of W: either it is indefinable, and thus a nullity; or else it can only be established after the war is over, in which case it has no predictive value.

If W is indefinable, then it can have no place in the formula. Thus we are left with the ratio of (E-C+R):SadA-C+R). Since the values of A and R are always greater for the nation attempting to suppress the insurgency than for the insurgency, the ratio will always favor the larger nation. Thus, the formula proves that the US won the Vietnam War and lost the Revolutionary War.

On the other hand, if W can be established after the war is over, then the formula lacks any predictive value. To illustrate, let's take a hypothetical conflict between a small insurgency (E) and a large nation (A) and plug in some numbers into the formula. For this conflict (E-C+R):SadA-C+R), reduced to the lowest common denominator, will equal (20-5+3)::(200-30+10) or 18:180 or 1:10. Now, let's factor in W. We have no idea, during the course of the conflict, whose will to continue is superior. Looking at the actual outcome of the war, however, we see that E defeated A. We can, therefore, assume that E's will to continue was sufficient to overcome the 1:10 disadvantage that it had against A. Thus we can assume that the ratio of E's W to A's W was greater than 10:1. But there's no need to make the estimate, since we already know the result of the war. We might as well state that the entire formula boils down to E(w)::A(w), where (w) is the will to continue as established by who actually lasts the longest. In that respect, the formula would be as infallible as it was vacuous.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Dec, 2004 11:37 pm
Interesting indeed...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 05:13 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
We shouldn't execute the retarded and we shouldn't, necessarily, call the irrational traitors.


Oh, chill out . . . nobody has threatened to execute you, and no one has called you a traitor.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 06:20 am
Lash wrote:
I think we could post duelling articles all night.

I don't want to invent my own facts, and I don't think you do, either.

Peruse this when you have time and motivation. It is a very recent, non-partisan review of the war and the post-war, and prognostications on us getting out. I hadn't read it before a couple of minutes ago, but it is very close to what I said previously.
Recent Review of Progress in Iraq


Your right that is a good article, thanks.
0 Replies
 
Lusatian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 06:40 am
joefromchicago wrote:
First, on a purely historical level, the claim that "the odds are almost always with the side with the greatest resources" is demonstrably wrong. Were it otherwise, then not only the US should have defeated the North Vietnamese, the French should have as well.

Moreover, on a logical level, the formula makes no sense. First, let's take the statement: "Time is indeed a major factor, because as time increases the political pressure to surrender increases … on both sides." If time has an identical effect on both sides, then time isn't a major factor -- it isn't a factor at all. On the other hand, if time has disparate effects on both sides, then the formula does not take this fact into account.

Second, let's look at the formula: "(E-C+R) where E = enemy's total resources, C is the losses (often expressed as a rate of) and R is the rate that losses can be recovered" (the formula is identical for "allies" as for "enemy"). Presumably, all of these factors are ascertainable and can be expressed in raw numbers, although both E and R would likely need to be estimated. There is, however, no point in expressing R as a rate, since it is not used as a multiplicand in the formula. The sum of (E-C+R) is then multiplied by W, which is "the will to continue."

Unlike E, C, and R, W is neither ascertainable ex ante nor can it be expressed in raw numbers. The will to continue can only be ascertained ex post: i.e. we can only know a combatant's will to continue by how long it continued, not by how long we estimate it will continue (any estimate, especially of an insurgency's will to continue, will undoubtedly be wrong). This leaves us with two possibilities for the value of W: either it is indefinable, and thus a nullity; or else it can only be established after the war is over, in which case it has no predictive value.

If W is indefinable, then it can have no place in the formula. Thus we are left with the ratio of (E-C+R):SadA-C+R). Since the values of A and R are always greater for the nation attempting to suppress the insurgency than for the insurgency, the ratio will always favor the larger nation. Thus, the formula proves that the US won the Vietnam War and lost the Revolutionary War.

On the other hand, if W can be established after the war is over, then the formula lacks any predictive value. To illustrate, let's take a hypothetical conflict between a small insurgency (E) and a large nation (A) and plug in some numbers into the formula. For this conflict (E-C+R):SadA-C+R), reduced to the lowest common denominator, will equal (20-5+3)::(200-30+10) or 18:180 or 1:10. Now, let's factor in W. We have no idea, during the course of the conflict, whose will to continue is superior. Looking at the actual outcome of the war, however, we see that E defeated A. We can, therefore, assume that E's will to continue was sufficient to overcome the 1:10 disadvantage that it had against A. Thus we can assume that the ratio of E's W to A's W was greater than 10:1. But there's no need to make the estimate, since we already know the result of the war. We might as well state that the entire formula boils down to E(w)::A(w), where (w) is the will to continue as established by who actually lasts the longest. In that respect, the formula would be as infallible as it was vacuous.


Joe, Joe. Do you never tire of the sweet and lulling sound of your own voice? No? You really must have been one of those kids in school who spent the entire time trying to impress all the other playground children of your mastery of knowledge. Possibly cited obscure and fustian facts and figures in the hope of bludgeoning your middle schoolmates with the sheer power of your raw intellect.

Why can't you answer simple questions? Do you think you are smarter than those who run the country? Have you more intimate knowledge of military strategy, logistical information, and geo-political intelligence than policy makers in the Pentagon? What revered academic credentials do you bear that qualifies you for such grandiloquent opinions on what should happen in Iraq? Most importantly, what else do you do besides talk?

Do you participate in any way in the foreign affairs that you are so opinionated about? If not, what differentiates your opinion from that of an armchair quarterback shouting at the ESPN channel during bowl week? So far this is what I have gathered is the essence of this thread: The World According to JoefromChicago - I think the US should lose the War in Iraq. They should unilaterally disengage. I have come to these profound conclusions by means of resources and information I am unable to disclose. I have yet to expound on the academic study or experience in field that have drawn me to said conclusions. I am willing to discuss pages worth of rhetoric to convince others who already agree with me that I am right.

If you can point to anything, really anything, that qualifies you for opinions worth more than Oprah's views on Mad Cow Disease please share them with us. You share just about everything else. Anything really. I eagerly await your next volume.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 07:54 am
Lusatian wrote:
what else do you do besides talk?


My, the thread was not complete without your thoughtful and eloquent discourse.

What else do you do besides mock?

Here's a suggestion for future posts: Brevity is the soul of wit. You could have saved us a lot of time by just reducing your post to "you're a poo-poo head."
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 07:58 am
DrewDad wrote:
Lusatian wrote:
what else do you do besides talk?


My, the thread was not complete without your thoughtful and eloquent discourse.

What else do you do besides mock?

Here's a clue: Brevity is the soul of wit. You could have saved us a lot of time by just reducing your post to "you're a poo-poo head."


Lol - he verbosely and hyperbolically bombasts, also.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 07:59 am
Dammit. I just verbed a damned adjective.

I hate that.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 08:00 am
Damn the adjectives! Full speed ahead!
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 08:06 am
dlowan wrote:
he verbosely and hyperbolically bombasts, also


This is definitely a candidate for the coveted "Sentence of the Day" award.

Keep your fingers crossed, dlowan. You're in the running.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 08:07 am
Nah - not gonna get into posting insulting drivel.



Dammit - just was insulting!!!



Silence.....

"If in your work
Or in your play
You take another's joy away
Why - that is to be rude...."
0 Replies
 
gustavratzenhofer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 08:09 am
Silly friggin' rabbit.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 08:11 am
Quote:
Do you think you are smarter than those who run the country?


Why should we trust the smartness of the same people who said we would be greeted as liberators with flowers and parades thrown in our honor?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 08:15 am
because they were sincere when they said it?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 08:17 am
dlowan wrote:
"If in your work
Or in your play
You take another's joy away
Why - that is to be rude...."


Nonsense, Wabbit . . . like all such homilitic nostrums for our behavior, this is a gross and thoughtless oversimplification. For some people, torturing small, defenseless animals is a source of joy. For others, nothing less than the red, red bloodlust coloring their vision as they hack, bludgeon and slay will bring them joy.

Would you consider yourself to have been discourteous were you to have interferred in any such activities?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 08:20 am
Quote:
Do you think you are smarter than those who run the country?


I might seriously consider suicide if i did not think as much in the case of this administration. The failures of staffing, providing sufficient troops, of arming, amoring and supplying the troops, the logistical idiocy and the stunning indifferences to the inadequacies of the resources deployed by the Defense Depatment passeth all understanding . . .
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 09:20 am
Setanta wrote:
For others, nothing less than the red, red bloodlust coloring their vision as they hack, bludgeon and slay will bring them joy.


You mean Saddam, right?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 09:30 am
Setanta wrote:
Quote:
Do you think you are smarter than those who run the country?


I might seriously consider suicide if i did not think as much in the case of this administration. The failures of staffing, providing sufficient troops, of arming, amoring and supplying the troops, the logistical idiocy and the stunning indifferences to the inadequacies of the resources deployed by the Defense Depatment passeth all understanding . . .

Quite so.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 09:35 am
joefromchicago wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Quote:
Do you think you are smarter than those who run the country?


I might seriously consider suicide if i did not think as much in the case of this administration. The failures of staffing, providing sufficient troops, of arming, amoring and supplying the troops, the logistical idiocy and the stunning indifferences to the inadequacies of the resources deployed by the Defense Depatment passeth all understanding . . .

Quite so.


We got a pretty good team of armchair generals on this site, don't we?
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Dec, 2004 09:44 am
ChicagoJoe,

Thank you for elaborating on the formula describing wars of attrition. The salient facts are that in such conflicts the odds favor the side with the greatest resources, but even more important than resources is the will to continue to the end. In Vietnam we were victorious on the battlefield, but the campaign was lost in the living rooms of America. We will prevail in Iraq, if the administration retains the will to pursue the effort with vigor.

Attrition as a strategy is probably more successful than not. A few modern examples are the Union defeat of the Confederacy. The defeat of the Axis Powers in WWII, and Germany in WWI. The futility of engaging a strong capable military is one of the keystones of the Balance of Terror that kept the Cold War from becoming radioactive hot. The inability of our enemies to fight the United States by conventional means is the reason that they have adopted irregular war as a strategy.

They can not win on the battlefield, ever. So instead they place their hopes for victory on the idea that their Will is greater than ours. They believe that Americans have grown soft and are afraid of the realities of war. They believe that Americans are so softhearted and softheaded that they will do anything to avoid bloodshed ... especially their own. They believe that Americans are so decadent and spoiled by riches that they will never sacrifice their own well-being for the greater good. They believe that God is directing them to victory over the Jews and the infidels of Western Civilization.

They have evidence to support their beliefs. America gave up against Vietnam, rather than push the campaign to a conclusion. They attacked America and American interests repeatedly and America never made an effective response. When the U.S. had Saddam on the ropes, they backed off and left him to rebuild his forces. Their approach would have been to complete the job, and install their own government no matter how much blood was shed. They judge us on our media image. They see selfish and self-centered dreamers who will believe anything. How foolish they believe Americans are to permit open and uncensored news. Americans give them instant battle assessments, and willingly air the propaganda of their enemies. So many Americans hate their government more than the Soldiers of God, that they only need to continue a little while longer and the Americans will run away with their tails between their legs. America talks tough, but in the end it always backs down when a few bodybags come home under flag draped coffins, so kill more Americans in the most terrible way possible. Americans are suckers for little kids, so murder a whole bunch because Americans also quick to assume guilt for every tear that falls in the world.

Are they right? Are Americans weaker than they are? Does America have the Will to fight and defeat those who plot our downfall? Does their picture of Americans fit you?
0 Replies
 
 

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