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Gungasnake's "Evolution is Bunk" Digression

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 08:11 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Some folks never outgrow the need for fairytales. Thats why supermarket tabloids sell so well.


I'm going to post a link to one more large NASA image here and then leave you geniuses to educate yourselves at your own leisure, just do a google search on 'cydonia'. Beats trying to look cool by laughing at **** you don't understand or are too lazy to investigate.

This is the most recent image of the so-called face on Mars, which is about a mile and a half or two miles long top to bottom:

http://www.iccsd.k12.ia.us/schools/west/library/CLassLinks/Sci/Cydonia%20Images/7-Face%20April%202001.jpg


Granted the structure is massively weathered and damaged, nonetheless it seems obvious enough to me that nature doesn't do things like that.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:38 pm
gungasnake wrote:
I'm going to post one more NASA image here and then leave you geniuses to educate yourselves at your own leisure, just do a google search on 'cydonia'. Beats trying to look cool by laughing at **** you don't understand or are too lazy to investigate ...
... it seems obvious enough to me that nature doesn't do things like that


Poppycock. I'll acknowledge I'm " ... laughing at **** ... " (your term - not mine Mr. Green ) recently posted in support of your argument here, but I will submit it is not I who, as per your contention, " ... don't understand or are too lazy to investigate ... " that " ... **** ... " Cool

Here's one of the better known examples of naturally-occurring "Stone Faces", New Hampshire's Old Man of The Mountain, a famous tourist attraction for centuries untill its unfortunate collapse in 2003:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8338/Faces/rocks/Mtn.jpg

A before-and-after:

http://astro.wsu.edu/worthey/astro/html/im-indian-heads/old.man.fell.off.jpg

I suggest, if you would not find the excersize too rigorous, if you are emotionally ready to abandon fairy tales, and are not in fear of your compatriots thinking you geeky or something for undertaking an actual research-based academic inquiry, that you sharpen your research skills and check out the Minnesota Museum of The Mississippi Stone Faces Gazeteer for dozens more such examples right here in our own back yard, so to speak ... most of which have plentiful nearby parking and are conveniently located relative to food and souvenir concessions.

Dual PHD astrophysicist and astronomer Dr. Guy Worthy, Washington State University Astrophysics Research Fellow, Assistant Professor of Physics, and Lecturer of Geophysics at Washington State University, acknowledged authority in the field of galaxy formation and history, author or collaborater credited with numerous books, including several widely used post-secondary textbooks, and hundreds of research papers, cited in thousands more, Mission Scientist with JPL/NASA's Space Interferometry Mission and with the Hubble Space Telescope (all that listed just to provide some small illustration of what genuine academic credentials of note consist of), maintains a similarly themed website, "Indian Heads" and other humanoid rocks. There you'll find, at the bottom of the first page, a brief discussion of Martian topography and a recently discovered, much less ambiguous, truly amazing Martian Face:

http://astro.wsu.edu/worthey/astro/html/im-indian-heads/marshappyface_mgs.jpg



When you've finished that tour, stop by Malin Space Science Systems, prime contractor for NASA's Mars Imaging Project, and the actual source of the images you've posted. There you will find nearly 200, 000 Mars images, a great deal of rather dry and technical analysis and discussion of those images and the methodology use to produce and analyze them (most best just glossed over by those not already eyebrow-deep in higher math), and this:

Quote:
Observations of the "Face on Mars" and similar features by the Mars Global Surveyor Orbiter Camera
Michael C. Malin, Principal Investigator, Mars Global Surveyor Orbiter Camera

There is some interest concerning whether or not the Mars Global Surveyor Orbiter Camera (MOC) will observe the "Face on Mars" and other features in the Cydonia region on Mars. This page will describe why there is interest and what the MOC plans are for photographing the features described below.
Background
For those not familiar with the topic, several Viking images show features on the surface of Mars that, in the eyes of some people, resemble "faces," "pyramids," and other such "artifacts." The most famous of these is the "Face on Mars" and associated features "The City," "The Fortress," "The Cliff," "The Tholus," and "The D&M Pyramid." A fairly substantial "cottage" industry has sprung up around these features, with several books having been written about them, newsletters published, public presentations, press conferences, and, of course, "supermarket tabloid" published reports. The basic premise of these people is that the features are artificial, and are messages to us from alien beings. Their tack is to say, "These should be rephotographed by Mars Global Surveyor, since with high resolution we should be able to prove that they are artificial. If they are in fact artificial, this would rank as one of the greatest discoveries in history and thus every effort should be made to acquire images." Evidence cited as presently "proving" these are unnatural landforms include measurements of angles and distances that define "precise" mathematical relationships. One of the most popular is that "The D&M Pyramid" is located at 40.868 degrees North Latitude, relative to the control network established by Merton Davies (the RAND scientist who has been more or less singularly responsible for establishing the longitude/latitude grids on the planets) to an accuracy (actually, a precision) of order 0.017 degrees. They point out that 40.868 equals arctan (e / pi); alternatively, one of the advocates notes that the ratio of the surface area of a tetrahedron to its circumscribing sphere is 2.72069 (e = 2.71828), which, if substituted for e in the above arctan equation gives 40.893 degrees, which is both within the physical perimeter of the "Pyramid" and within the above stated precision. Other mathematical relationships abound. The advocates of this view argue that "no scientific study of these features has been conducted under NASA auspices" and that NASA and the conservative science community are conspiring to keep the "real" story from the American public.
The conventional view is that this is all nonsense. The Cydonia region lies on the boundary between ancient upland topography and low-lying plains, with the isolated hills representing remnants of the uplands that once covered the low-lying area. The features seen in these mesas and buttes (to bring terrestrial terminology from the desert southwest to bear on the problem) result from differential weathering and erosion of layers within the rock materials. The area is of considerable importance to geologists because it does provide insight into the sub-surface of Mars, and to its surface processes. The measurement of angles and distances seems so much numerology, especially when one understands the actual limitations in the control network (of order 5-10 km, or 0.1-0.2 degrees) and the imprecision of our corrections of the images (neglecting, for example, topography when reprojecting data for maps) on which people are trying to measure precise angles and distances. For example, using the latest Mars Digital Image Mosaic and the U. S. Geological Survey control network, the aforementioned "Pyramid" is located at 40.67 N, 9.62W. Using the Viking spacecraft tracking and engineering telemetry, the position is 40.71 N, 9.99 W. The difference, 0.04 deg latitude and 0.37 deg longitude, represents nearly 17 km on the ground, or 7X the size of the Pyramid. These positions differ from the e / pi position by a similar number. Even given accurate data, however, most science does not depend solely on planimetric measurements, even when using photographs. There are many other attributes used to examine features, especially those suspected of being artificial, and the martian features do not display such attributes. No one in the planetary science community (at least to my knowledge) would waste their time doing "a scientific study" of the nature advocated by those who believe that the "Face on Mars" artificial.


Things Limiting MOC Observations
Before discussing the observations MOC will attempt to make of "The Face" and other such features, some facts about the camera and its ability to look at specific locations are needed.

The MOC is body-fixed to the spacecraft

It has no independent pointing capability. It makes pictures the same way a fax machine does (i.e., the scene is moved past the single line detector).

The MOC has a limited cross-track Field of View (FOV)

The MOC has a very small field of view (0.44 degrees), which is about 3 km from the 400 km orbital altitude. It typically takes very small images at very high resolution (lots of data). Anything wider than 3 km cannot be imaged in its entirety.

The MOC has a large but not "infinite" along-track Field of View

The MOC's downtrack field of view is limited by the amount of data that will fit in its buffer (about 10 MB). If one uses the entire buffer (which is not likely to be completely empty unless it's planned to be) and 2:1 realtime predictive compression, this translates to a downtrack image length of about 15 km. The camera has been designed to be able to average pixels together to synthesize poorer resolution, which frees up data. Under the best case buffer availability, an 8X summed image would be 3 km wide (but only 256 pixels across) by about 78,000 pixels long which, at 12 m/pxl (8 X 1.5) would be over 800 km long. One of the big uncertainties in taking pictures of specific places on Mars is the uncertainty in when the spacecraft will pass over that place: the timing uncertainty of 40-120 seconds translates to 120 to 360 km uncertainty in position.

The spacecraft has limited pointing control

The spacecraft uses infra-red horizon sensors for in-orbit pointing control. Owing to variations in the IR flux of the horizon with latitude, season, surface topography, atmospheric dust content, cloudiness, and other meteorological and climatological conditions, the control capability is about 10 mrad (0.6 degrees = 4 km), which is larger than the MOC field of view.

There will be a substantial uncertainty in the predicted inertial position of the spacecraft (and hence, the camera)

The position of the spacecraft is determined by radio tracking for 8 hours (roughly 4.5 hours of actually seeing the spacecraft) a day, and by computing the position of the Earth, Mars, and the spacecraft in an inertial coordinate system. It takes a few days to do this, and to use it to determine where the spacecraft will be a few days later. By that time, gravity perturbations, atmospheric drag, and autonomous momentum unloadings will have changed the orbit. Error studies suggest that the uncertainty seven days after the end of a given period of tracking can be represented as (at best)a 40 second uncertainty in the time the spacecraft will be at a specific point in its orbit. This translates (at the orbital rate of the spacecraft projected on the ground of 3 km/s) to 120 km downtrack and (because Mars rotates at 0.24 km/s at the equator) 9.6 km crosstrack. At 40 degrees latitude, the crosstrack uncertainty is 7.4 km, over twice the size of the MOC field of view. At some times in the mission, when the orbit geometry is unfavorable, predictions will be worse.

The non-inertial position of the spacecraft will also be uncertain

The position of the spacecraft is determined inertially. As noted above, the position of the longitude/latitude grid is also uncertain to about 5-10 km.

The spacing of orbits will be uncertain

If, in spite of the preceding, orbits were equally spaced, then the average spacing of orbits at the equator for the 687 day mission would be about 2.5 km, which means that each spot on the equator would fall within the MOC field of view in (possibly) two images. In fact, the repeat distance is just over 3.1 km, again assuming equal spacing, and it is more than likely that each spot on the equator will only be seen once. At 40 degrees latitude, the spacing is roughly 2.4 km, and any location will be seen, at most, twice. Given Items 1-6 (above), it is most likely that some places will be overflown twice, and others not at all, and that our ability to predict this is very limited.

The MOC team is attempting to address some of these issues with, for example, optical navigation. This could reduce the spacecraft position uncertainty by perhaps a factor of five or more. An attempt will be made to generate a new control grid with higher precision (perhaps as good as 1 km). But nothing can be done about the orbit spacing or the pointing control or the width of the MOC field of view. Thus, hitting anything as small as a specific 3 km piece of the planet is going to be very difficult.
This discussion doesn't address the variability of the martian atmosphere, which is very dynamic. Given the occurrence of dust storms during some seasons, and polar clouds during others, there is no guarantee that, even when the spacecraft flies over a specific area, the ground will actually be visible.

Plans for Observing the "Face on Mars"
Despite providing a number of people involved with the "private" studies of the "Face of Mars" with exactly the same information presented above, there appears to be a continuing view that MOC will purposefully avoid taking pictures of the "Face" and other features. Much of their focus is on "conspiracies" they feel exist to keep information from the public. This, of course, isn't the case: if an image of the "Face" is acquired, it will most definitely be released. The "Face on Mars," "City," "Fortress," "Cliff," "Tholus," "D&M Pyramid," etc. are in the MOC target database. Image acquisitions will be scheduled each time the spacecraft is predicted to pass over each target. This is done automatically. Given the factors noted above, however, there is no certainty that the images will actually include the features of interest.

http://www.msss.com/education/facepage/target_map_icon.gif
Output from planning software showing Cydonia "targets" (GIF = 252 KBytes)

Bottom Line

It is planned to try to acquire images of the "Face" and other features in Cydonia. Contrary to what some people have said and written, this has been the plan for some time. This plan was not established in response to outside pressure; rather, there are two reasons for acquiring these images. First, given the interest in the general public about the "Face," it is appropriate to acquire such images for public relations purposes, especially since the public interest has been generated in no small way by the people who claim there is a conspiracy at NASA to withhold information from the public. Second, there are valid scientific reasons to examine landforms in the area (which, after all, is why the Viking spacecraft were photographing the area in the first place).



Oh, and if you're interested in doin' a little learnin', lookin' WAY cooler to the folks viewin' these threads, and in particular bein' considerate of folks who happen to have slower connections, I'll be happy to give ya a short, simple tutorial on how to size and host images for quick loading on forum pages at no cost to yourself beyond a few key strokes and mouse clicks. Whatchya got goin' on there with some of your recent posts - which it would be my pleasure to help ya remedy - ain't cool or considerate at all, but its your call whether you care to do anything about it or not. Its your image, after all. Cool Rolling Eyes Cool
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 12:24 am
I know how to do that in html but not in bbcode. I HAD been wondering if that was even possible.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 12:51 am
Sorta possible, but not the same as with HTML - whatchya oughtta do is drop the image to your machine, resize it to somethin' say between 640 X 480 and 800 X 600, save it as a JPEG or GIF - any of a buncha free apps will let ya do that - then upload it to a hotlinkable free host - there are a buncha them, too - open the image from that host, copy its url (the image's url, not the page its on, nor its thumbnail), and paste it inbetween a set of image tags here. Theres lotsa tipps and tricks in the Help forum under Tutorial - How to post an image. Check that out, and if ya still have questions, ask away. Glad to help.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 09:33 am
Okay, I give up.. I'll just post links to the large images from now on.

Other than that I fail to see any comparison between the new face images and Indianhead Maryland or any other such features such as you mention and so do a lot of entirely competent scientists and this is not based on perception alone but on valid scientific measures such as fractal indices as well. Tom van Flandern, Richard Hoagland, DePetrie, Molinar, Mark Carlotto and others who have tried to make the case for further investigation of the Cydonia region have major kinds of academic credentials.

Moreover, as a taxpayer, I am incensed at the idea of NASA sending probes to odd areas of Mars to look for microbes while studiously ignoring major evidence of a city having found on the planet. Cities interest me; germs do not. I can find germs in my fricking toilet without spending billions of dollars to do so.


http://www.iccsd.k12.ia.us/schools/west/library/CLassLinks/Sci/Cydonia%20Images/7-Face%20April%202001.jpg
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 10:13 am
JPL attempt to filter out information in recent Cydonia face image released to public:

http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydonia/3-faces.asp
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 10:15 am
Society for Planetary SETI Research home page:

http://spsr.utsi.edu/index.html
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 10:47 am
Lessee here ... that particular image to which you linked Here may offer some insight into your postion in the matter at discussion; it traces back to a website complex belonging to Iowa City Community School District, spefically to pages on the daughter site belonging to West High School, from where it is linked on This Webpage, posted by one Jan Wielert, science instructor (no credentials or CV provided), who in the introductory FAQ pertaining to the course Foundations of Science III says:
Quote:
... Q: What topics are we going to cover in science this year?

A: First Trimester:

Nature of Science: You will be asked to propose and answer questions that allow you to construct rational understandings about your world. You will learn about proper methods and tools for scientific investigation. You will learn criteria to apply in evaluation of scientific and non-scientific claims. Hopefully you will expand their (sic) understanding of how science and technology effect changes in your society. (About 3 weeks) ...

(emphasis added by timber, grammatical error, as noted, in original)

So, I just gotta ask, gunga ... are you missin' about 3 weeks outta your life? Mr. Green


BTW - here's a link to My favorite SETI site. Also, ya might wanna check out This SETI FAQ, from The Planetary Society, an outfit uniformly held in high regard by published, heavilly credentialled, well respected, authoritative members of the legitimate academic and scientific communities.

Been runnin' Seti@home here about 5 years now. Gotta pretty low user number, and a whole buncha completed work units.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 12:05 pm
gunga is funny, I just caughht this tHREAD. heS A HOOT.
BESIDES BEING FULL OF IT
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 12:12 pm
farmerman wrote:
gunga is funny


Yeah, fm, but sincere Laughing Twisted Evil Laughing
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primergray
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 12:33 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Cities interest me; germs do not.


Really?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 01:09 pm
primergray wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
Cities interest me; germs do not.


Really?


Sure you have to study germs in order to be able to cure diseases... But finding germs on a place like Mars does not strike me as interesting. Finding the remains of a city there does.

NASA of course seems to view that one backwards.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 01:33 pm
gungasnake wrote:
primergray wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
Cities interest me; germs do not.


Really?


Sure you have to study germs in order to be able to cure diseases... But finding germs on a place like Mars does not strike me as interesting. Finding the remains of a city there does.

NASA of course seems to view that one backwards.


If could choose between finding either of the two, I would choose to find a city, but even a germ would be absolutely fantastically amazing, and it's a lot more realistic an expectation.

A germ would go a long way toward telling us how common life is, and how many ways it can be constucted (at the mollecular level). It would be a bit more disappointing if we found out that life on Mars came from Earth, or visa versa, because then we would only learn that planets seed each other, not much about probability and range of spontaneous replicative mollecular combinations.

After this, the discovery of a multicellular fossil would be the most shocking because it's a long way from bacteria to multicellular combinations, if those combinations even occur at all in common conditions.

A city would be a while new ballgame. Not only would be learn about the probability and combinations of biology (which we get from a germ), but we would also know about intelligence and technology as well as possible cultural systems (even beyond Mars).

But Mars doesn't have any cities on it, and it may not even have live (past or present). From what we know now, it appears that Mars had water, and shallow seas, and combinations of chemicals and conditions similar to those which we expect might support life. And that's pretty amazing stuff just as it is. It would be even better to find fossil evidence of past bacterial activity, or even residual chemicals from bacterial activity. Even these levels of discovery would be stunning.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 02:11 pm
Aside from everything else, the new probes have been finding mechanical junk and debris strewn over the sands of Mars, artifacts of some very ancient civilization. One particularly interesting example which appears to be a piece of some sort of a tongue-in-groove device:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/Spirit/box-solids.jpg

Original NASA images are at:

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/?IDNumber=pia04995

and to see the detail necessary for the object above you need to download the large tif image PIA04995.tif and view it either with eog on linux or with JASC or some decent quality image software under Windows.

I have to give NASA credit in that, at least after the debacle with the filtered face image they released, they are not making any effort to hide this stuff or keep it hidden. Again, they should be shouting this to the rooftops and the fact that they aren't is due to paradigm conflicts.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 02:25 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Aside from everything else, the new probes have been finding mechanical junk and debris strewn over the sands of Mars, artifacts of some very ancient civilization. One particularly interesting example which appears to be a piece of some sort of a tongue-in-groove device ...

... they should be shouting this to the rooftops and the fact that they aren't is due to paradigm conflicts.


http://img30.exs.cx/img30/6991/0948mdiggingwell5iq.jpg
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 02:48 pm
THINK OF ALL TTHE GREAT SCIETISTS WHO WORK IN THE cREATION "SCIENCES"...UHHH....

YOU FIRST GUNGA.


oK, LETS THEN MOVE ON TO THE GREAT DISCOVERIES THAT CREATION SCIENTISTS HAVE MADE......UHHH... SAME THING.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 02:56 pm
farmerman wrote:

oK, LETS THEN MOVE ON TO THE GREAT DISCOVERIES THAT CREATION SCIENTISTS HAVE MADE


Well, they do seem to have discovered the internet provides 'em not only a tall soapbox, but an inexhaustable audience of the functionally uneducated who yearn to be addressed from just such soapboxes. 'Course, that's not exactly an original discovery.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:10 pm
Forgive me father, for I have sinned...

Howso?

That thing about casting pearls before swine again...
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:13 pm
http://img149.exs.cx/img149/4100/quitdigging4jc.jpg
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2004 03:34 pm
This sooo reminds me of the guffaws I had over the Virgin-Mary-image-in-the-grilled-cheese-sandwich (-sold-on-Ebay-for-$20,000) story a few days ago.

BTW, I see a glorious Phoenix in the puddle at the bottom of that well, timber. I'm inspired to do a study (if I can acquire a government grant, that is).
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