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Gungasnake's "Evolution is Bunk" Digression

 
 
primergray
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 12:47 pm
oops... double post
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primergray
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 12:47 pm
gungasnake wrote:
primergray wrote:
Are you the author of the above, Gungasnake? (If so, Tina Turner?? well, maybe 30 yrs ago... )

Is there any way to get back to the point of discussing 'evolutionism' on this thread? I think it was something to do with the sanctity of human life.


Not the sanctity of life so much as simply the question of whether or not there could be such a thing as morality at all in a world in which evolution had replaced religion and religious beliefs.


Is your argument, then, not one of spirituality (that's the best term I can come up with), but of social control?

Religious beliefs are necessary to keep behaviour within acceptable parameters?
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gungasnake
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 01:18 pm
primergray wrote:


Is your argument, then, not one of spirituality (that's the best term I can come up with), but of social control?



The two are related...
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gungasnake
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 01:23 pm
timberlandko wrote:
No, Snake, they aren't "kooks" - the folks who select-and-snip isolated bits and pieces of purportedly "Supportive Evidence" from them,...


I don't see that as taking anything out of contrext in this case and I don't see the people doing it as "kooks".

The kinds of quotes in question invariably involve arguments which the authors have made against the old formulation (Darwinian gradualism) of evolution. Moreover, I have pretty much laid out the arguments against the new variant (the Gould/Eldridge "punctuated equilibria) theory which, as I have noted, isn't really a theory since Gould and Eldridge and the others do not even bother to try to devise a mechanism to explain it. All it really amounts to is an unsupported allegation and it basically flies in the face of pretty much everything we know about logic and the laws of probability.

If there's some third alternative version of a theory of evolution which more than one or two people subscribe to, I am not aware of it.
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gungasnake
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 01:26 pm
One other thing some of you guys might want to note: I am not claiming that you should drop evolutionism and become a southern Baptist or a Methodist. What I am claiming is that evolution is so messed up that ANY religion would be better, including voodoo or rastafari.

http://www.phinneysplace.com/RastaFish.gif
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primergray
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 01:34 pm
gungasnake wrote:
primergray wrote:


Is your argument, then, not one of spirituality (that's the best term I can come up with), but of social control?



The two are related...


That's ALL I get?

I swear, I'd tell you that you're gonna drive me crazy, except that I already am.
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timberlandko
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 01:39 pm
Hey,what if all the evolution digression stuff got split off into its own thread - somewhere other than in politics? Anybody think thats a good idea - anybody object?
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gungasnake
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 01:51 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Hey,what if all the evolution digression stuff got split off into its own thread - somewhere other than in politics? Anybody think thats a good idea - anybody object?


For the reasons I've already stated, I'd hae to object. I believe the question of evolution being taught in our public schools, or at least being taught to the exclusion of all other views as evolutionites demand, is going to end up being settled in courtrooms and on ballots. It's basically a political issue.
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Cycloptichorn
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 01:57 pm
Quote:
What I am claiming is that evolution is so messed up that ANY religion would be better, including voodoo or rastafari.


Nah. No religion is better than a theory, period. There is significantly more evidence that evolution exists than any claims made by any religions, including voodoo and rastafari.

Tho I used to have a bumper sticker that said 'Jah is my co-pilot.'

Cycloptichorn
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blueveinedthrobber
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 01:59 pm
gungasnake wrote:
One other thing some of you guys might want to note: I am not claiming that you should drop evolutionism and become a southern Baptist or a Methodist. What I am claiming is that evolution is so messed up that ANY religion would be better, including voodoo or rastafari.

http://www.phinneysplace.com/RastaFish.gif


I was not aware that evolution is a religion....I thought it was an accepted (by and large) scientific theory.....
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timberlandko
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 02:06 pm
So what we got so far is a tie vote. Other than by request of the thread's originator, Squinney, in this case - who could make the request up front, I'd figure majority preference oughtta be the decider. my take is the sorta discussion at discussion at the moment - the evolution digression - would, if seriously to be pursued, be better suited to

A) Spiritualiy and Religion

B) Philosophy and Debate

or

C) General News

Even if my own preference would be along the lines of Trivia and Wordgames - but thats an editorial comment, not a suggestion.
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gungasnake
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 02:14 pm
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:


I was not aware that evolution is a religion....I thought it was an accepted (by and large) scientific theory.....


That was the impression people had 30 years ago. At present, all available evidence seems to have turned up negative and large numbers of people are beginning to reject the theory and, if nothing else, revert from outright atheism to agnosticism, admit that this is one of those areas of life where we simply don't have enough information to make a reasonable statement and let it go at that.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 03:12 pm
<sigh>

Gunga, we know your take on evolution. BPB was just (I think) pulling your chain.

You shoulda called into Rush yesterday, though, it was right up your alley.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 03:49 pm
DrewDad wrote:
<sigh>

Gunga, we know your take on evolution. BPB was just (I think) pulling your chain.

You shoulda called into Rush yesterday, though, it was right up your alley.


I heard part of that but it was not really up my alley. What you were hearing was this claim that if conditions were the tiniest bit different, life as we know it could not exist. I suspect life is much more adaptable than that.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 04:40 pm
really does anyone give a **** how we got here?
We're here aren't we?

I mean it's a matter of curiousity, but no need to get all postal about it....
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primergray
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 08:10 pm
Except that Gungasnake's contention is that our beliefs about our origins affect our moral character. I think that's what he's saying, I'm still not sure. He doesn't seem willing to expand on this issue, and I would desperately like him to do so. I think he wants me to beg again, as I did on the Noah's descendants thread. How humiliating... but here it goes.

Please, please, please, Gungasnake, I need something I can actually sink my teeth into this time. (Not too far, of course.)
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Merry Andrew
 
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Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 08:39 pm
I'm with Timber on this. Move this discussion out of politics.
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australia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 09:24 pm
I agree. I havn't got the intelligence to understand half of this evolution stuff. It goes way over my head.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 10:39 pm
australia wrote:
I agree. I havn't got the intelligence to understand half of this evolution stuff. It goes way over my head.


Evolutionists want you to think that, but it's not really all that complicated. In fact, it's kind of like the story about the kid and the emperor who went walking down the street naked. The thing which is supposed to be the big super theory of the biological sciences turns out to be a shebolleth and it doesn't take that terribly much to figure it out.

A few examples, in the way of questions for evolutionists are usually enough to give most people a flavor for it. For instance:


1. How did snakes evolve? Being a snake is actually a sort of a complex deal. You need a very long and narrow body, hearts, lungs and all that sort of stuff have to be differently shaped and packed differently than you find in normal animals, you need to know how to slither, which is a fairly complex skill... Attaining all of that would take many generations.

Consider however that the very first step along such a path (at least according to the theory of evolution) would have to be being born as a quadraplegic (without any arms or legs, due to mutation).

In the real world, there is nothing more pitiful than a creature with no arms and legs. Humans in such condition are generally kept alive by charity; animals in such a state last an hour or two before being eaten by predators. How then did the snake survive the the many generations it would take to evolve the complex features he requires after being mutated into quadraplegic sitting duck target for every predator on Earth?

2. Insect evolution. Insects are presumed to have evolved from (segmented) worms. Nonetheless there is no evidence of this having actually happened and the simplest insects are vastly more complex than the most complex worm. The pictures we see of the worm to insect transition show vast gains in complexity at every step with no explainations as to what caused that complexity. How and why did insects arise from worms?

3. Lungs. In theory, lungfish are supposed to have given rise to amphibians and amphibians to our modern land animals. Nonetheless, lungfish don't get around all that well on dry land. They use their capabilities to move from one stream to another or to bury themselves in mud and hang on until the rains come. Consider that the transition from lungfish to amphibian is supposed to have occurred during an age of insects with 2' wingspans and consider what a swarm of such insects would do to a lungfish which was trying to actually spend enough time out on dry land to become a functional land animal... How did the lungfish overcome all of that?

For that matter, if fins could turn into legs and feet, we should see it happening from time to time in the world's waters. It isn't like humans don't haul in millions of fish every year and look at them. Where are the fish with feet?

4. Metamorphoses. Metamorphoses does not exist amongst fish and yet amphibians display it. Where does metamorphoses come from and how did it "evolve"? Wouldn't a lungfish trying to evolve into a frog have enough problems without worrying about metamorphoses?

5. Insect metamorphoses. Evolutionists claim that we all start from a single cell and evolve through various forms prior to being born; that butterflies and other such insects merely spend a certain amount of time living out in the world in one of the foetal states or some such. Nonetheless butterflies and moths use cocoons and it's very hard to imagine how the caterpillar would survive his changeover without the cocoon to protect him. That says that the first such creature which ever started using such a system had exactly one generation to figure out the whole thing with cocoons or it wouldn't have made it. How did that work?

6. Paranormal capabilities. Evolutionists generally pooh-pooh this kind of evidence and attempt to discredit the people involved with such studies, since they instinctively dislike the idea of having to deal with anything like that within an evolutinoary context.

Nonetheless, there are other people and groups of people who do not have the luxury of trying to ignore things which do not fit within their ideological paradigms. The king of France in the 1400's, for instance, did not have such a luxury. The Catholic church, apparently making up in thoroughness for anything they might lack in celibacy, took several hundred years to analyze the case of Joan of Arc, and ultimately determined that at least some of her activities required information that she had no way of having other than for paranormal means; they cannonized Joan in the 20'th century.

Likewise the US military does not have the luxury of ignoring such things. You can check out:

http://www.kingdomlife.com/kingdom/remote_viewing.htm

or do your own google search on 'Stubblebine' and 'remote viewing' at your leisure. Books have been published on soviet activities in this area and I presume American general officers are not paid to investigate pseudoscience.

Rupert Sheldrake's www site is http://www.sheldrake.org

Sheldrake is a former director of studies in cellular biology at Cambridge University who has made a second career of using statistical methodology and intelligent experiment design to investigate things normally termed "paranormal" and is generally viewed as public enemy #1 by the CSICOP crowd and other such "science vigilantes". If nothing else, his methods are unassailable and his credentials are significantly better than theirs are. Sheldrake has pretty much provided valid statistical evidence that certain things which are usually termed paranormal are real.

How do paranormal capabilities evolve?

Then again there is the question of human origins. I have two basic reasons for despising PBS, one being the habit of handing their donor roles over to the DNC (which is why some refer to them as WDNC), and the other is the BS yuppie science programs they put on.

Virtually all such programs show a group of homo erectuses (homno erecti?) or some such primitive hominid deciding that it was time to come down from the trees and live on the African savannas and walk entirely on their rear legs and stop swinging from trees, the general claim being that such were the humble beginnings of humanity.

Now, what's wrong with that? I'll telll you what's wrong with that: all monkeys, all apes, and all humans are basically too slow and too noisy to live on the savannas. The most basic difference between human infants and the young of every other prey animal, and we would definitely have been a prey animal at such a point, is that the baby deer and what not know how to keep quiet.

What's going to happen the first time some human infant starts screaming his head off out on the African savannas with packs of 500-lb predators running around all over the place? Can you say "Dinner Bell"?

A much more viable version of a plausible proto-history for the human race has been proposed by a lady by the name of Elaine Morgan:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0285635182/002-2145485-5214412?v=glance

Morgan accepts an evolutionary model on general principles but does not go into any sort of a defense of evolution or evolutionism, and one does not need to be an evolutionist to grasp that she is almost certainly correct in thinking that humans originally lived in water. As she notes, we seem to share about a hundred traits with nothing in the world other than the aquatic mammals.
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 11:14 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Where are the fish with legs?


Gunga, you need to google "Muddskippers"
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