A Constant and Unending War: The USA vs The World

Can't we all get along? I am saddened by this bile...... especially at this most sacred of retail holidays.....please I beg you folks...embrace one another spiritually that is.....

dlowan. Rudyard Kipling wrote that poem for the United states, specifically President Theodore Roosevelt. The issue at the time was whether or not the US should suppress a Philippino "insurgency" (read resistance to colonialism) and make the islands a colony rather than grant them independence after the Spanish American War. Kipling was living in the US, at the time, his wife was american and Roosevelt loved the poem.

Good that you should bring up Kipling, dlowan. I was just thinking of Great Britain while browsing through these posts. The USA has pretty much become what GB was at the end of the 19th Century and the start of the 20th. The sun never sets on American troops worldwide. That was quite a run that the Brits had, starting with the victory over the Spanish Armada during the reign of QE 1. Today, the United Kingdom is a second rate power. I don't mean that in an insulting or condescending way. Today, every power on earth is a second or third rate power when compared to the US.

The problem is that in those days colonialism was quite accepted as a legitimate way to gain and maintain supremacy in the world, and supremacy itself was seen as a very positive thing. Nowadays 'colonialism' is a dirty word and 'self-determination' is the watchword. And so we (the US, that is) are reduced to all sorts of subterfuge and double-speak in our colonial efforts. We pretend that scheduled elections in Iraq will actually give the country a democratically-elected government. We set up puppet dictators in third-world countries and get righteously indignant if and when they don't toe our line (viz. Noriega, Pinochet, Marcos etc. etc.). The new colonialism is covert, but we still 'take up the white man's burden' in Asia and South and Central America. Will Afrca be next? I was somewhat surprised that we didn't go into Liberia with some force after Charles Taylor was forced out of office. Haiti is now an American dependency, for all practical purposes.

I think we could learn a lot from the experience of Great Britain. After World War II, the Brits simply couldn't hold their empire together any more and it disintegrated. Fashions also changed and colonialism was no longer a viable way to run a multi-national conglomerate. And the 'Commonwealth' idea does no more than pay lip-service to an ideal that, in practical terms, no longer exists. I think we are seeing the end of the American Republic. Whether the American Empire will see as long a run as the British Empire did is open to debate. But, of course, once you're at the top you have nowhere to go but down. I'm just sorry to see that Bush & Co. seem to be intent on accelerating the process of decline.

The neo-con ideal IS nation building, ostensibly to spread 'democracy', but really to make sure that white folks rules de roost as alwayz.

Notice how Bush never talks about the fallout on the US as a nation (billions wasted, dead soldiers, allies ignored) but on how great and grand it will be to have 'free' elections in Iraq? Even the damn UN doesn't go in first with overwhelming military might and then say (to the survivors) "Here's your chance to live like we do in America!".

Here's the Carter Years:

Somolia, 1978
American interests in the region derived from the strategic location of the Horn of Africa on the Suez and Cape oil routes. The prospect of the Soviets dominating both Somalia and Ethiopia created considerable political concern in the United States, although the crisis for the US was one of confidence rather than one of substance. Carter's National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski went so far as to declare that "SALT lies buried in the sands of the Ogaden", signifying the death of détente. In late February 1978, surface ships from MIDEASTFOR began surveillance operations of the Somali invasion of the Ogaden region of Ethiopia. Following the collapse of the Somali army in the Ogaden, the Kitty Hawk CVBG was ordered to a holding point north of Singapore. Brzezinski advocated sending an aircraft carrier battle group into the Red Sea to shore up the Somali position. On 23 March 1978 the Kitty Hawk CVBG was released without having been sent into the Indian Ocean. The actual deployment of the group of small warships in the Red Sea remained an expressive display of force unproductive of identifiable advantage.

Largely because the Soviet Union sided with Ethiopia in the Ogaden War, a United States-Somali rapprochement began in 1977 and culminated in a military access agreement in 1980 that permitted the United States to use naval ports and airfields at Berbera, Chisimayu, and Mogadishu, in exchange for military and economic aid.



Zaire 1978
President Jimmy Carter supported Mobutu's accusations of Cuban and Soviet involvement, even though no hard evidence was presented. But the United States refused to become involved militarily and sent only nonlethal military supplies, such as medical and transportation equipment. In May 1978, the 82nd Airborne Division was alerted for a possible drop into Zaire. In May and June 1978 American aircraft were deployed to to move Belgian and French troops to rescue the westerners in Kolwezi endangered by the Shaba fighting. Eventually, the Air Force placed 445th Airlift Wing crews on alert, and on 04 June 4, three 445th crewmembers flew with active duty crews into Zaire, becoming the first reservists to arrive on the scene with supplies.

Mariel Boatlift, 1980
What followed became the largest Coast Guard operation ever undertaken in peacetime to that date and is a remarkable example of the Coast Guard's ability to respond to a developing crisis quickly.

Coast Guard resources were sent from all over the Atlantic seaboard to reinforce the taxed Seventh District, and President Jimmy Carter called up 900 reservists to active duty in that District. Coast Guard Auxiliarists also contributed to Coast Guard operations by filling in at various bases, sailing their own vessels and flying their own aircraft to augment the active duty personnel. The President also ordered Navy assets to assist as well. By the time the boatlift came to an end, over 125,000 Cubans had made the journey to the United States and of those only 27 perished at sea, a remarkable example of the effectiveness of the men and women in uniform who responded to the crisis with little to no warning beforehand. Coast Guard cutters responded to the Mariel Boatlift and saved thousands of lives.

Korea, 1979
President Park was assassinated on 26 October 1979, and DEFCON 3 was declared later that day. A powerful American naval task force moved into the Korean strait to counter any possible North Korean plans to exploit the death of President Park, with the Kitty Hawk CVBG ordered to a position south of Korea.

The 963rd Airborne Air Control Squadron was directed to deploy to Osan Air Base, Korea. Less than six hours after the tasking was received, the first aircraft lifted off the runway, fully loaded with crews and equipment. Two E-3s and nearly 240 aircrew and support personnel deployed at short notice to South Korea following the assassination of President Park. E-3 crews provided surveillance of the Korean peninsula while adjacent to hostile airspace. 963rd Airborne Air Control Squadron crews provided deep look surveillance over the Korean Peninsula and conducted joint training missions to enhance American and Korean air defense capabilities. The crews and E-3s remained in Korea for 60 days and flew 54 missions totaling 372 flying hours

Saudi Arabia, 1979
In March 1979 two E-3s temporarily operating at Kadena Air Base, Japan, were deployed to Saudi Arabia in light of an on-going border dispute between North and South Yemen. The 964th Airborne Air Control Squadron, a unit of the 552d Air Control Wing, undertook the E-3's first real-world operational deployment to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. During this March-April 1979 operation, the squadron crews flew the first E-3's to circumnavigate the globe. They visited Alaska, Hawaii, Japan, Korea, the Philippines, Saudi Arabia and the Azores.

In the fall of 1980 Iran and Iraq declared war, causing international concern. Crews and aircraft from the 552nd Airborne Warning and Control Wing were deployed to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, to augment the Royal Saudi Air Force's radar coverage of Saudi airspace. In September 1980 four E-3s and almost 200 wing members again deployed to Saudi Arabia in an operation called Elf One which continued for over 8 years. They provided round-the-clock airborne radar coverage, and enhanced Saudi air defences during the Iran/Iraq war. Initially under USAFE control, this Elf-One contingent came under USCENTAF after its formation on 1 Jan 1983. The 963rd Airborne Air Control Squadron provided crew members and support personnel on 30-day temporary duty assignments to support the effort. On 15 April 1989 the last Elf-One E-3s and KC-135s left Saudi Arabia: the small element that remained later became the Elf-One Control Team (EOCT). In all, Elf-One aircraft had flown more than 6,000 sorties and 87,000 hours to protect the airspace of neutral countries during the Iran-Iraq War.
source

Indeed - however, in the days of the British Empire, might was dressed up in the clothing of unquestioned rightness, indeed, of noblesse oblige and the mission to help the benighted natives of the world learn from the glorious English what to do and how to do it, as they trembled in the darkness of superstition, ignorance and lack of proper underwear.

Frankly, (if stupidly -- I have said, myself, in another thread, that it is bootless to believe in the possibility of quick social progress) I had hoped we had, as a planet, outgrown such pathetic, and actually tragic, arrogance and caricaturesque self-delusion, and the belief that naked self-interest (albeit only short-term - not even enlightened self-interest), dressed in the lendings of mawkish false morality, would fool anyone, least of all those donning it.

I was wrong.

Bill said: "I don't believe for one moment that any of you would be happy if we suddenly pulled all of our troops home."

You're actually right with that bit - yes, sudden huge changes can be catastrophic.

And as for the "cop on the beat" (cops correctly are APPOINTED under strict RULES to enforce LAWS and are accountable to a duly elected government - {you know, the sort you global cop types say every country oughta have - or you will invade tham, right?} - this idea of America as "world cop" is about a self-appointed power policing laws made only by itself, for its own perceived benefit {and, as I said above, only for perceived SHORT-TERM benefit, at that} and accountable to nobody except its own whims. This violates the whole concept of cop - it is a dangerous travesty - which is why I attacked Bill's post.

In all seriousness, where on earth do the people who appear to support this think it will GO?

Or - do you think that the US, alone of all humanity, will be guided only by the purest and perfect ethics, and never abuse its power?

Well, THAT idea has already been blown out of the water - for anyone who knows anything about US history - which, tragically, some of you do not, it seems - as well as by commonsense, all of history, and reality.

I don't agree with everything the USA does but would rather be allies with them than against them.

I have no problem with a rationally conducted alliance - nor have I said anything about enmity - if you be addressing me, australia.

I but become shocked by the kind of unthinking jingoism that sometimes gets expressed here, and by some of the US's actions.

I didn't agree with the invasion of Iraq. I couldn't really see the purpose of it, and thought it would cause more problems than it solves. But I am glad we have the alliance with USA with our defence treaty. Without it, we are far too exposed.

just as an aside...I just noticed...cool Bowie signature there Mr. Stillwater.....

The greatest irony I see at present is that while the USA is continuing to act as if it's 1904, involving itself in numerous military adventures, China has proclaimed that it intends to lead the world in bio-technology and is well on the way to bringing that goal into reality.

Meanwhile, our faith-based, moralistic, bring'em-democracy-or-knock'em-in-the-head folks in Washington are doing the same thing to bio-technology that the mullahs did for Middle Eastern Science in the 1400's.
They see it as a thrust in our domestic culture war, tieing it together with right to life issues, the inadvisability of equality amongst the various sexual proclivities and Hollywood's continued attacks on family values.

They've scored big against gays, may have the restoration of anti-abortion laws within reach, but so far all they have managed to do against the Hollywood big wigs is lower their taxes.

Yes, they are setting a shining example for the Afghan war lords on how to run a democracy. Funny, the warlords say, it looks just like what we had before you guys invaded.

Joe (just make sure that some of them are'nt too free, okay?) Nation

Joe, excellent post.

No. Do you ever get tired bending definitions to suit your arguments?

About what? Let's break down what I wrote:

This portion you agreed with shortly after your outburst.

This is a statement of FACT... to explain my selection of "Cop on the beat".

There was some ironic humor intended by this statement, but it is nonetheless a factual statement. Our military supremacy is undeniable and the $88,000,000,000,000 or so we have laying around would sustain us longer than ANY enemy. (Note to whom it may concern; my answer is no more cartoonish than the question it answers. :wink:)

Now let's examine the fatal flaw in your argument.

While interesting, this entire definition of "cop on the beat" is the product of your imagination. It is as self-serving as it is absurd. Most of the ME's "cops on the beat" are not "accountable to a duly elected government"... unless you're switching sides, and you meant our "duly elected government". :wink:


You've just described the pre-war cops in Iraq perfectly. Now that we've provided a force that is "APPOINTED under strict RULES to enforce LAWS and are accountable to a duly elected government", you see charges being brought against the "cops on beat" themselves, when they violate the rules. Where was this oversight in Saddam's "cops"?

Hopefully, to a democratic Iraq, so 20 million more human beings can live with some form of dignity and justice... which just may provide the catalyst for hundreds of millions more to strive for it.

A little perspective, please? How is it that you can completely ignore the conditions in Iraq before the invasion? Outside of fantasy land- "Purest and perfect ethics" are not a reasonable expectation.


Commonsense- tells us that brutal mass-murdering despots will not change if left unopposed.
History- tells us that brutal mass-murdering despots will not change if left unopposed.
Reality- tells us that brutal mass-murdering despots will not change if left unopposed.

Suggesting that it's no one's business outside of a repressed country is akin to suggesting domestic violence or child abuse is no one's business outside of a household. Like victims of domestic abuse, victims of murderous oppressors like Kim and Saddam require outside assistance, or they will continue to suffer untold, horrific fates, generation after generation, forever.

Thanks, Acquiunk.

Bill, the 'well, we got us one badass murdering sob' argument doesn't fly when there are at least twenty equally badass murdering sobs still afloat in the world. The US screwed up in invading Iraq, that's all. We set the place afire and now we have to stay and put the fire out. Here's my wager on that: when the next President of the United States is running for re-election, a major criticism will be her inability to peacefully end the conflict.


Meanwhile, back at the war of terrorism, just how are we doing recruiting some folks to work the inside of al Queda? Have we found the money on the honey trail? (It was reported nearly two and half years ago that a major source of funding was through the production and sale of honey.) How is Homeland Security doing on that port security? Oh, wait. First we have to find someone who hasn't got any ties to the mob or taken any kickbacks to run the place AND we got another worry now that the former cabinet secretary Thompson took leave of his senses and mused aloud 'how come they haven't attacked our food supply because that would be so easy.'

Yeah, I feel a lot better. It all seems to be working smoothly.

Joe (hand me those rose colored glasses) Nation

I disagree.

Disallowing others from stepping up to the plate is a big part of preserving our current geopolitical power.

It may be welcome to you, but it isn't typically welcome among the crowd that favors projection of power and globo cop.

Weren't an "outburst" Bill - it was very genuine and shocked disgust.

And you ignore the fact that theargument is not just about Iraq (which is bad e-bloody-nough) but about a projected ongoing role for the US.

You attack my definition of cop - while ignoring the important fact that this is the definition of cop favoured by the US - (and Oz and most of the west of course) - and part of the parcel of values which the more - yes, CARTOONISH - thinkers amongst you wish to see enforced by the wondrous new world cop.

Ain't nothing wrong with the values, methinks, but there is a great deal wrong with the arrogance, hubris, and cartoonish "thinking" that goes with believing you guys are the sole arbiters of who may do what.

The New York Times Sunday Magazine had an interesting article on this issue


Democratic Providentialism
By MICHAEL IGNATIEFF

Published: December 12, 2004


During this year's election campaign, President Bush liked to wind up his stump speech with a peroration about freedom -- and therefore democracy -- being not just America's gift to the world but God's gift to mankind. This line went down well, maybe because it carried the happy implication that when America and its soldiers promote democracy overseas, they are doing God's work, even in Iraq.
The name for this idea is democratic providentialism. It has become the organizing vision of an administration that took power in 2001 actively disdainful of highfalutin foreign-policy uplift. All that John Kerry and the Democrats could put up against it was prudent realism, and to the extent that the election was a referendum on vision, prudent realism lost hands down.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/magazine/12WWLN.html

dlowan,

It's not worth it.

Funny given your signature.