1
   

'Dig a hole and dump them in it.'

 
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 12:18 pm
Quote:
...a bill that would ban the use of state funds to purchase any books or other materials that "promote homosexuality".


"Promote" [v]: make publicity for; try to sell (a product); "The salesman is aggressively pushing the new computer model"
To "promote homosexuality", then, would mean trying to recruit kids and entice them to become homosexual??
This is not the same as this:

Quote:
...Allen does not want taxpayers' money to support "positive depictions of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle".


Positive depictions would lean more toward teaching tolerance, and showing that homosexuality is OK.

I see them as two different things. Is "promoting" the same as "showing positive depictions"?
Anyone else?
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 12:32 pm
Revel,

Why do you assume that the Administration is determined to "censor free art ... in public schools and libraries"? Have you seen a proposal anywhere to impose Federal censorship over what art is displayed in schools and libraries? The books and materials purchased for those institutions comes from you local taxes, not the Federal government. It is your local school board who budgets the money and decides what curriculum will be taught in your schools. In recent times there has been great public demand for school standards to insure that all students meet some minimum level of academic knowledge. As a result we've seen some Federal involvement (which I generally oppose), but that involvement is not concerned with what "art" appears in the classrooms.

Library acquisitions are made from funds budgeted by their municipal, or counties, not the Federal government. Generally, the money is allocated, but no book or art work is specified. That is left to the Libraries to determine, and in a time when local government budgets have been shrinking most funds are spent to buy the books most needed to fill public demand and to maintain collections. What censorship exists, exists in the judgements made by library administrators who have to make difficult choices.

Though you didn't mention museums who depend upon public money, they are the most problematical. Most do not get much, if any, Federal money, and that money isn't for specific art work or exhibitions. Like the libraries, museum curators have to get by with shrinking budgets, but they mostly make their own decisions as to what art to purchase, or exhibit. Sometimes they deliberately choose provocative materials in hope of gaining publicity and increased public attendance. The problem comes when the County Board of Supervisors is so offended that they threaten to cut off funding if the museum continues to purchase/exhibit art like XYZ. That gets into the news, and a public uproar follows. That is a local matter, not federal, and should be worked out locally.

I don't understand why you would feel at a disadvantage in these exchanges. You are an adult and you have opinions. We may disagree on certain matters, but then why should we all agree? Your opinion may be correct, perfect and complete. In that case you may be able to persuade us to adopt a better, more perfect and compete opinion. You may be wrong, wrong, wrong. In that case, you may learn something and alter your opinion(s). Far more often we are all somewhat "right" and somewhat "wrong" in our beliefs. It is through the open and candid exchange of ideas, thoughts and opinions that knowledge and wisdom are enhanced. The key is to remain at least partially open to the idea that we, our opinions, might very well be wrong, wrong, wrong. Thinking isn't always easy, or without risk to settled notions of what is "right". Almost everything in our experience is muddled to some extent. Write on.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 01:56 pm
Asherman wrote:
Revel,

Why do you assume that the Administration is determined to "censor free art ... in public schools and libraries"? .......


didn't ashcroft spend a pile of taxpayer money to cover a few nude statues at the justice department ? by doing so, he "promoted" a certain view of morality.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 04:05 pm
Shouldn't the Attorney General have some say over the decor of his own offices under his jurisdiction? Did the Attorney General dictate that no nude statues appear in other Federal Buildings? Did he issue orders that no school or library in the United States display classical nude statuary, or that only paintings of the Last Supper on velvet be hung in public places?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 04:46 pm
The USA is a Republic and, as Plato said, in order to establish an effective government you must do away with artists for they will, by nature, offer alternative visions of truth that are detrimental to the aims of government. Funny thing is Plato was considered to be an artist.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 06:12 pm
Asherman wrote:
Revel,

Why do you assume that the Administration is determined to "censor free art ... in public schools and libraries"? Have you seen a proposal anywhere to impose Federal censorship over what art is displayed in schools and libraries? The books and materials purchased for those institutions comes from you local taxes, not the Federal government. It is your local school board who budgets the money and decides what curriculum will be taught in your schools. In recent times there has been great public demand for school standards to insure that all students meet some minimum level of academic knowledge. As a result we've seen some Federal involvement (which I generally oppose), but that involvement is not concerned with what "art" appears in the classrooms.

Library acquisitions are made from funds budgeted by their municipal, or counties, not the Federal government. Generally, the money is allocated, but no book or art work is specified. That is left to the Libraries to determine, and in a time when local government budgets have been shrinking most funds are spent to buy the books most needed to fill public demand and to maintain collections. What censorship exists, exists in the judgements made by library administrators who have to make difficult choices.

Though you didn't mention museums who depend upon public money, they are the most problematical. Most do not get much, if any, Federal money, and that money isn't for specific art work or exhibitions. Like the libraries, museum curators have to get by with shrinking budgets, but they mostly make their own decisions as to what art to purchase, or exhibit. Sometimes they deliberately choose provocative materials in hope of gaining publicity and increased public attendance. The problem comes when the County Board of Supervisors is so offended that they threaten to cut off funding if the museum continues to purchase/exhibit art like XYZ. That gets into the news, and a public uproar follows. That is a local matter, not federal, and should be worked out locally.

I don't understand why you would feel at a disadvantage in these exchanges. You are an adult and you have opinions. We may disagree on certain matters, but then why should we all agree? Your opinion may be correct, perfect and complete. In that case you may be able to persuade us to adopt a better, more perfect and compete opinion. You may be wrong, wrong, wrong. In that case, you may learn something and alter your opinion(s). Far more often we are all somewhat "right" and somewhat "wrong" in our beliefs. It is through the open and candid exchange of ideas, thoughts and opinions that knowledge and wisdom are enhanced. The key is to remain at least partially open to the idea that we, our opinions, might very well be wrong, wrong, wrong. Thinking isn't always easy, or without risk to settled notions of what is "right". Almost everything in our experience is muddled to some extent. Write on.


Bush had that guy Allen from alabama over to WH I think the article said five times. Just last week that Allen introduced a bill in his state that would ban certain books that give a positive outlook on the "gay lifestyle." The subject of libraries and schools were mentioned in connection with it. The following is bits of quotes from that guy Allen from the article that started this thread.

, "Bush's base introduced a bill that would ban the use of state funds to purchase any books or other materials that "promote homosexuality

Allen does not want taxpayers' money to support "positive depictions of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle". That's why Tennessee Williams and Alice Walker have got to go.
We have an obligation to "save society from moral destruction". We have to prevent liberal libarians and trendy teachers..."



(As just a side note: Personally I wish that local libraries were not left up to local people to decide what goes in there. I can't find any decent books that I like to save my life. I had to request certain liberal political books and I was told that unless there was a greater demand the chances of them getting that book are slim. I went and brought the books that I wanted.)

About feeling at a disadvantage, sometimes I say too much about myself that really only draws attention to myself as though that is what I was seeking all along. But this forum is full of intellectual types from all sides of any political persuasion from all countries and I am not one of them and I know it only too well. But I am interested in almost all subjects and just struggle along regardless. No need to say anything else. Embarrassed

I guess I left out museums because I haven't ever been to any that I can recall. We have sort of a museum in town where local can display their artwork and other historical pieces are on display. I think the whole thing is run by donations and just local people wanting to show their stuff. It's pretty interesting if you like old mining towns and down home kind of stuff.

Needless to say for the life of me I couldn't imagine anything even remotely controversial being put on display there.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 06:25 pm
candidone1 wrote:
Quote:
...a bill that would ban the use of state funds to purchase any books or other materials that "promote homosexuality".


"Promote" [v]: make publicity for; try to sell (a product); "The salesman is aggressively pushing the new computer model"
To "promote homosexuality", then, would mean trying to recruit kids and entice them to become homosexual??
This is not the same as this:

Quote:
...Allen does not want taxpayers' money to support "positive depictions of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle".


Positive depictions would lean more toward teaching tolerance, and showing that homosexuality is OK.

I see them as two different things. Is "promoting" the same as "showing positive depictions"?
Anyone else?


They are two different things but just any way you slice it that allen guy comes off as some kind of homophobic.

But to me there seems to be two different issues, while the subject of discriminating against the homosexual community is tied up in this in a big way, there is also just the uncomfortable idea of stifling creativity and a sneaking censorship that is the opposite of how I felt this country to be.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 06:40 pm
Mr. Allan is a state legislator from the great State of Alabama, and his legislation would only apply to that State ... if it ever manages to get enough votes in the State legislature and is signed by the State governor. At that point, the law would probably be challenged in Federal District Court, and in due time would find itself before the U.S. Supreme Court where in all likelihood it would be struck down as unConstitutional under the First Amendment, and others.

The President can invite almost anyone to the White House he wishes to meet. Some are folks he likes and agrees with, others may be political enemies who he wishes to reign in. We don't know what passed between the President and this obscure State Legislator, so it's a pretty big leap to assume that the President is about to ask for Federal legislation mirroring this fellow in Alabama.

I'm truly sorry that you've never had the opportunity to visit a world class museum. Where do you live? Could you take a week or so of vacation? I'm guessing that there is a pretty good museum within a few hundred miles of where you live, but perhaps not. There are great museums in other States, but my favorites are the L.A. County Museum of Art and the Getty Museums in L.A., the DeYoung in San Francisco, National Galleries in Washington D.C., MOMA and the Guggenheim in N.Y., and the Peabody in Salem, Mass. Smaller library systems often don't have the resources to buy much beyond those materials most requested.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 09:11 pm
Hmmm.

My ex, when we were married, was interested in the story of an actress, Fanny Butler, who wrote a diary. He ended up writing a screenplay about her situation, some years before others did, but as it happened, his screenplay didn't get picked up, a rather routine happening in screenwriterville.

but, why I bring this up, is that he researched the diary in the local county library and they got him a copy, a Very Old copy, which he pored over at great length, over continuously extended time. And therefore so did I, by osmosis. I was amazed, the Marina del Rey library, quite a tiny and lovely place, got this book from Ohio for him, expeditiously.

I think that is how it should be.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 09:35 pm
Asherman wrote:
Shouldn't the Attorney General have some say over the decor of his own offices under his jurisdiction?


a) no. they are not his offices. they belong to the citizens of the united states. b) the statues that he did this with, are as i read, in the great hall of the justice department. c) with all that is going on in the world (even before 9/11 ), there are many, many very much more important things for any employee of the justice department to be committing due diligence to other than wringing their hands over a classical style marble statue. d) isn't it wasteful to toss out +/- 20k of the taxpayer's money to cover up a marble "wardrobe malfuntion"? i mean, jeez...


Asherman wrote:
Did the Attorney General dictate that no nude statues appear in other Federal Buildings? Did he issue orders that no school or library in the United States display classical nude statuary, or that only paintings of the Last Supper on velvet be hung in public places?


not that i'm aware of. but that's really not the point.

the point is that it was a selfish, immature and wasteful act.

and it "promoted" the idea that classical nude art is dirty.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Dec, 2004 11:15 pm
Didn't seem to make much impression, or at least I know of no rush to "cover up" statues in museums around the country.

The Attorney General is the person in overall command of the Justice Department and all of its buildings and assets. He, or she, has quite a bit of leeway in how his department is run. Have the statues remained "covered up", or was that a temporary thing? I confess I don't know, nor have I ever cared much one way or the other. Like you said, there are far more important things we should care about regarding the Justice Department than a few statues. Wasteful? Sure, but in the world of governmental waste in every administration from Madison to the present there has been waste ... often waste so great that the cost of "covering" statues that offended the tastes of an Attorney General hardly would hardly register. Should there be no government waste? Yep, but never going to happen so long as governmental leaders are human beings.

For many years I was a government employee. My offices were in public buildings, but during my tenure they were my offices and they were decorated to my tastes. Mostly, my offices were furnished with my own furniture and accessories. Used to knock visitors eyes out to come into a government office with a fine persian on the floor, antique chairs and side tables, original paintings of the walls, and silver service if they wanted coffee. My office was designed to my tastes, with my money, and to accomplish specific purposes in the course of my serving the public. No one ever suggested that my offices should only contain the standard government issue stuff, but on the contrary many of my peers afterwards took more care in how their own offices were setup. Of course, I didn't have any nude statues paid for by previous government spending, nor did I think such statues appropriate to the government business I was doing. I appreciate the nude, but don't really think the form is generally appropriate to government offices.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 03:09 am
asher,

on paragraph one, i understand what you're saying. however, in this day and age, we owe it to ourselves to hold the people in government accountable. not along partisan lines, but as the people of the republic expecting our "employees" to not flush our money down the tubes. it's not good. and it is most certainly not good stewardship of our assets.
in fact, that shouldn't be a "in this day and age" issue. it's never been cool. but now we have a lot more access to what those guys are doing than they did in the days of washington, jefferson, jackson, lincoln etc., on up through the present.

paragraph two. yes, i decorated my offices to my taste as well. like you, i brought in my own things, hell i practically lived there.

but, again, i believe that most people see those statues for what they are. statues.

since the creator deemed it fit to clothe us in these meat suits, i suspect that any shame associated with knowing of or seeing their representation is the sad possession of a frightened or dirty mind.

that doesn't mean i think everybody should ride the 8:15 in the buff... most places are much too cold for that. Shocked
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 03:11 am
In any case, they could have moved the podium and not draped the statues.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 03:18 am
osso !!!! hey, how are you. is paco behaving? (ya know how corgis are. Laughing )

ashcroft never heard of "out of sight, out of mind"?? or change the channel? Laughing
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 08:16 am
I know it is pretty big leap and I don't think the president is on the verge of censorship because whatever else people think about the president he is not poltically dumb.

It is just that he seems awfully cozy with a guy who thinks along the lines that Mr Allen does to have invited to him to white house so many times since he really does not merit that much attention from someone in the WH. He must like his views. I think that is pretty reasonable assumption to make, but I could be wrong.


I live in south western KY and cultural things is not really that big around here. Maybe someday I will visit those other places that do have big museums. It would be interesting.


Asherman wrote:
Mr. Allan is a state legislator from the great State of Alabama, and his legislation would only apply to that State ... if it ever manages to get enough votes in the State legislature and is signed by the State governor. At that point, the law would probably be challenged in Federal District Court, and in due time would find itself before the U.S. Supreme Court where in all likelihood it would be struck down as unConstitutional under the First Amendment, and others.

The President can invite almost anyone to the White House he wishes to meet. Some are folks he likes and agrees with, others may be political enemies who he wishes to reign in. We don't know what passed between the President and this obscure State Legislator, so it's a pretty big leap to assume that the President is about to ask for Federal legislation mirroring this fellow in Alabama.

I'm truly sorry that you've never had the opportunity to visit a world class museum. Where do you live? Could you take a week or so of vacation? I'm guessing that there is a pretty good museum within a few hundred miles of where you live, but perhaps not. There are great museums in other States, but my favorites are the L.A. County Museum of Art and the Getty Museums in L.A., the DeYoung in San Francisco, National Galleries in Washington D.C., MOMA and the Guggenheim in N.Y., and the Peabody in Salem, Mass. Smaller library systems often don't have the resources to buy much beyond those materials most requested.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2004 11:45 am
<Fine, DTOM, and so is Pacco, the little scamp>
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 08:15 pm
The latest NYT poll had this doozy:

"The poll also found, though, that Americans were evenly divided on whether television, movies and books were including too many gay themes and characters."

Shocked
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Dec, 2004 11:14 pm
Shocked (agreed)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Dec, 2004 11:00 am
Just found this hope-generative thread...

Guys kissing and flirting and wearing the most outrageous accessories on tv. That's very very bad. It is pretty clear evidence of cultural and moral decline. There might be, on any given day, some twenty such guy kissing guy events on the major networks. This promotes homo behavior. Bad.

Gun battles, cruelty, murders, robots ripping hearts out. Now that's the stuff of steadfast moral American tradition. Portrayals of it promote traditional american values. Good.
0 Replies
 
 

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