OK, being one of those people whose life is "so uninteresting the best they can hope for is to watch other people living theirs" I've finally read this entire thread. It was fun and challenging, I must say. The following are my thoughts on many matters discussed:
I find, spendius, cav, live2b, cyracuz, Frank and snood.....oh and Bib, that I disagree hardily with much of what you've said about Jesus and Christianity. I agree, it may have been a better system in 4 A.D. during Constantine's era......but really, this is 2005.
spendius wrote:
Quote:Anybody who supports the Christian project,as I do, will feel obliged to do his bit,however small,to hold back the forces of schism or,better still,catch them before they get airborne.
My initial response to this was "Oh my God! (figure of speech) He's a Christian. Oh dear." But then I read on.
spendius wrote:
Quote:Before you question a dogma though you should try to understand it. It might have more wisdom that appears at first sight.It might even be a metaphor.
Just to make it clear, starting out that I do understand more than I wish I did about Christianity, especially the version practiced by the fundamentalists.
spendius wrote:
Quote:Freedom equates with anarchy and nihilism and any society which allows more than a token,and a manageable token at that . . .
I agree with you and Janis on this one, spendius. My problem is that I don't believe Christianity is a good enough system for management. It may have been functional when Jesus was around, some how, though, I doubt it, but I can see that it must have been an improvement on what came before..........but this is 2005 and Christianity is out dated. There are many better systems to use that what passes for Christianity today. Some people use it wisely, it's true. They take what is useful and throw the rest away or see it as metaphor, as you seem to do. But you don't know these fundamentalists who are using Christianity to enforce ignorance and meanness. If you did, you'd understand a little better why so many of us hate George Bush.
spendius wrote:
Quote:You're not doing without religion at all.You just think you are.
I agree with this statement as well........only I would replace the word "religion" with "a system." That way it works for us both.
spendius wrote:
Quote:One might see the virgin birth as metaphor.
IMO, there was no virgin birth. Mary may have been one of those kind of women you were referring to on another thread. My theory is that she was gettin it on with a traveling stranger and he just happened to be a schizophrenic. So, it may be, and in my opinion is in fact that what we have in Christianity is not anything but the teachings of a psychotic person, translated by Paul or maybe Constantine, into something resembling a good enough system for the times. But it's backward, no better than the dark ages, to be following it now in the way fundamentalists do. They stand on the principle of the literal intrepretation of the Bible.
As metaphor, the story of the virgin birth works......sort of. I mean I can think of much better metaphors that do not involve giving up the pleasure of f--king. Anyway, why is it necessary at all? I see your point of using Christianity as a metaphorical guide, but I don't agree that it represents good principles for living well with others.
My biggest problem with Christianity is that it lends itself rather readily to the misuse by the fundamentalists. I know, I know.....don't tell me......I know any system can be and has been misused. But some are more available for misuse than others. Christianity has the martyr-for-cause thing in it and I believe that martyrdom is usually a neurotic at best, and often psychotic response to an otherwise workable situation. It's hardly a principle for guiding one's life.
Quote:Since the advent of those technologies porn has been legalised and other sexual relief systems which don't cause babies have appeared.
On the above, spendius........I couldn't disagree with you more. Sex is good, it fun and it's good for you. I agree that certain controls are necessary to prevent abuse. But banning sex for any other purpose than to have babies is going waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far. There are lots of good, healthy reasons to encourage sex for pleasure alone. And I'm all for it!
I have no use for Jesus or his teachings (if he actually existed at all or said and did the things that are reported). The concepts of God and Jesus as God are flawed metaphors.
As far as I'm concerned, Jesus provoked others to hang him on the cross where he would be left to die and then blamed it on everyone in the entire world, living, dead and to be. It is said that he died for my sins. Well, I never asked him to. So he can leave me out of it. I do think someone should have rescued him, however. (Suicide and self destructive behavior are symptoms, after all and can be addressed through a good, well managed psychotherapy.) But if Jesus continued to attempt suicide after being rescued a few times, I'd let him hang. I learned a long time ago when I worked in the mental institution........some people will not allow others to help them.
spendius wrote:
Quote:I'm as thick skinned as a Galapagos turtle
You sure as heck are.......but so is Frank, Snood and the rest of you.
Quote:I'll admit that an argument can be put which said that if all Christians suicided to save the world the world might be a better place
LOL I believe this to be an interesting possibility for all fundamentalists, Christian, Jewish or Muslim.
Religion is based on authority. And I know you think authority is the only way to go. And I agree we need some authority. But any system that requires over dependence on authority, at the expense of one taking one's own responsibility, is a flawed system and needs to be re-thought. And this goes especially for any religion that denigrates the seeking of pleasure, especially sexual pleasure, for pleasure's sake.
live2bfree wrote:
Quote:"Religions can be likened to Rat poison, 99% sweet cookie, 1% arsenic...and 1% arsenic kills
So do sweet cookies, live2b. It takes a little longer than arsenic, but it also requires a lot of misery for others as well. I've often told my daughters when they talked to me about Christian principles they've heard from my family members or their friends that "Christianity is like eating donuts. They're delicious, but they ultimately make you fat, lethargic and eventually commit you to an often slow, and nasty precipitous death. I think you need to eat your meat and vegetables too. Donuts always taste better than vegetables. You have to cultivate a taste and it takes work, but you're better off for it."
spendius wrote:
Quote:The former are known as dilettantes which rhymes with panties.
This, my dear spendius, is hilarious. However, I must point out that your pronunciation of "dilettantes" is a little Canadian. LOL I've been called a dilettante, and sometimes I believe it's true.
[WOW! Somehow my computer just closed down not only IE, but also Word Perfect where I was saving what I'd written. I learned through some past similar miserable experiences to not only copy what I'm writing to Word Perfect but to save it as well. If I hadn't been doing that this time......I'd be screaming with horror right now. Praise God and pass the supper.]
cyracuz wrote:
Quote:Christianity is not killing you, because you are not paying heed to it. It is obvious from the post I quote. You are saying that you would bend the truth to your benefit. That is not christian, it's not religious at all, it's just evil. The sad thing is that christians seem to think it is ok. Maybe not christians only, but they are the only ones that ever defend this attitude.
It's not evil to bend the truth, cyr. Sometimes it is. But there are times when it's humane or a short cut to getting what both parties want anyway. However, I agree with you that spendius is not dying because he's not practicing what he preaches. But he's all the better for it, IMHO.
Frank wrote:
Quote:Cute little wooden soldier!
snood wrote:
Quote:...only fool obsessed with you is you. Don't flatter yourself, although I know that's hard not to do with someone so self-important.
spendius wrote:
Quote:It's only use is to give us all a fix on your IQ.
Looks like Frank, Snood and spendius are three of a kind. It makes life on a2k interesting......as long as no one reports it. You guys are great! But two of you know from experience and one of you should be informed that you can be kicked off this forum if you are reported for talking like that to each other. So.......please be careful, I like it here with all three of you. It's so disappointing when you are forced to leave me.
spendius wrote:
Quote:We certainly can't afford a tissue of disconnected accidents if we wish to keep this show on the road for the children and for their children.
While I agree with you here, spendius, I must assert that Christianity is not the only nor the best system to choose from for these purposes.......as I've already said.
spendius wrote:
Quote:Of course we are evil.Does that surprise you?
Speak for yourself now, ole chum. I agree with Jerry Falwell.......<laughing> "Love the sinner, hate the sin".....but my translation of that simple truth is, "it's not the essence of man that's evil. Evil can only be determined as a derivative as demonstrated by behavior." There's nothing evil about wanting what you want and trying to get it. Evilness is only in behavior. It's Method, I tell you! It's a person's method for achieving the acquisition of pleasure a man or woman naturally desire that can be judged as evil, not the desire or the attempt to get it.
spendius wrote:
Quote:Golf,and many other things,are set up to supply the demand for escape from self examination and thinking.
Now, I must say that this is poppycock. Leisure activities, athletic, mindless ones like golf (or Cricket) sometimes provide that sense of restored sense of agency we all need to make it through. I play racquetball and Nintendo (mainly Bust-a-Move 99 and Tetrus). It's not only a way to relax and reprogram my otherwise overly obsessive mind, but it's good brain exercise as well. I know, you may prefer your a2k and pub debate time, or reading to be good brain exercise as well. And it does have the advantage of contributing to the search for meaning and truth......I agree and enjoy it myself. But it doesn't help me on that other point. Sometimes I just need to hit something, smash it against the wall or break it up (as in bust-a-move or tetrus, or racquetball). It helps me with my aggressive wishes (sublimation) and it somehow returns me to my necessary delusion of some control over my life. That is to say that I can at least control the ball......and very well, I might add. It somehow miraculously stops the obsession in which I can find myself trapped.
Frank wrote:
Quote:Medicate first...then post.
Medication is usually preferable to religion, Frank. I agree.
spendius wrote:
Quote:European and American literature is unhealthy because most of it concerns itself with the conflict between individual freedom and the demands of society.
Yes, but don't leave out the intrapsychic conflict. It's about that too. Granted, we have intrapsychic conflict because we are dependent on living with others, but still it's too significant to leave out. And I don't understand what you mean when you say it's unhealthy.
spendius wrote:
Quote:The young students I used to perform in front of would write 1000 word essays on stuff like that.And in the introductory aspects of the course at that.
So you're some sort of teacher. You haven't told us that before. What other secrets are you holding back?
spendius wrote:
Quote:It is perfectly natural for men to compete with each other.Even Kangaroos do it.We are all trying to impress Lola.That's the basic force that got us all to where we are.Women just love us fighting over them and they get a bit frustrated when we don't.It runs in their blood.
This, in my opinion, is absolutely true! Very funny.
cav wrote:
Quote:I pity Picasso's lesser known brother Picnoseo
LOL, cav. You can only make this joke, like the one spendius made earlier if you are pronouncing your "a"s like a Canadian (or Englishman as well, it seems.) Very funny though.....even if you can't pronounce words properly.
Oh, and spendius., Conrad Black is a helpful person only and exclusively to himself. He's a greedy capitalist. People like him and Bush give capitalism a bad name. And the Spectator is a fascist publication. Do you know much about the history of this publication? How it is financed and to what ends it is committed?
Well that's all for now. I know it's long. But I had a lot of catching up to do. See y'all around.
[edited twice for proper grammar and spelling.}
