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Who is your favorite Physicist?

 
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Thu 24 Aug, 2017 05:44 pm
@Susmariosep,
I can't point to a virtual particle. It's effects are observable as the force carriers between real particles. Something is there interacting with these real particles with a lot of the same characteristics as a real particle, but not all the characteristics necessary to call it a real particle.

I can't point to a quark in a proton very easily because we have to destroy the atom it is in, and then set up very sensitive detectors to see it. That quark in that proton is embedded in a field with other quarks which is embedded in a field made up of virtual particles of the Higgs field surrounding. The proton and its quarks were always there, and the virtual particles in the fields of the space-time continuum are always there even when we can't detect them. It takes much less energy to destroy an atom and knock free a quark in a proton, than to knock a virtual particle out of the space time continuum. I think they did it when they provided evidence for the existence of the Higgs boson.
Quote:
Perhaps you will see that virtual particles are all in your mind, but outside and independent of your mind, there is no virtual particle.

That would not be logical to me. There can be no pure vacuum. Something must be there to interact with matter to gives the forces of nature. Gravity is not arising out of nothing. There is to much scientific evidence now to support some kind of structure to empty space. See Higgs boson, Casimir force, double slot experiment, quantum gravity, entropic gravity.

I am pretty darn sure virtual particles are there, but like scientists in the past that imagined atoms and quarks, science can't be sure till enough evidence is in and then properly interpreted.
Susmariosep
 
  0  
Fri 25 Aug, 2017 11:14 am
@brianjakub,
Dear Brian, you tell me;
Quote:
I can't point to a virtual particle. It's effects are observable as the force carriers between real particles.


Do you notice that you are talking riskily in contradictory directions, namely, on the one hand you say:
"I can't point to a virtual particle."

On the other hand, you continue:
"It's effects are observable as the force carriers between real particles."

You are saved from speaking in contradiction with your words, by your employment of the words, ""It's effects are observable..."

Suppose you just say that
"Virtual particles are mathematical constructs in our mind."

What do you say about that?
centrox
 
  1  
Fri 25 Aug, 2017 11:33 am
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:
I can't point to a virtual particle.

You can't point to any others, really.
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Fri 25 Aug, 2017 12:04 pm
@centrox,
Dear Centrox, you say to Brian:
Quote:
Quote:
I can't point to a virtual particle.

You can't point to any others, really.

From my part, I see that a lot of scientists take a lot of liberty with willfully making it appear that all kinds of mathematical constructs which are in their mind only, take a lot of liberty with speaking about them like that they exist as the nose in our face exists.

Now, I might be going off tangent, but I always notice that scientists avoid using the words: exist, existence, existing.

For example, see whether you can find the words: exist, existence, existing in this piece from a theoretical physicist, Prof. Matt Strassler:
Quote:
https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/virtual-particles-what-are-they/


Virtual Particles: What are they?

The term “virtual particle” is an endlessly confusing and confused subject for the layperson, and even for the non-expert scientist. I have read many books for laypeople (yes, I was a layperson once myself, and I remember, at the age of 16, reading about this stuff) and all of them talk about virtual particles and not one of them has ever made any sense to me. So I am going to try a different approach in explaining it to you.
The best way to approach this concept, I believe, is to forget you ever saw the word “particle” in the term. A virtual particle is not a particle at all. It refers precisely to a disturbance in a field that is not a particle. A particle is a nice, regular ripple in a field, one that can travel smoothly and effortlessly through space, like a clear tone of a bell moving through the air. A “virtual particle”, generally, is a disturbance in a field that will never be found on its own, but instead is something that is caused by the presence of other particles, often of other fields.
Analogy time (and a very close one mathematically); think about a child’s swing. If you give it a shove and let it go, it will swing back and forth with a time period that is always the same, no matter how hard was the initial shove you gave it. This is the natural motion of the swing. Now compare that regular, smooth, constant back-and-forth motion to what would happen if you started giving the swing a shove many times during each of its back and forth swings. Well, the swing would start jiggling around all over the place, in a very unnatural motion, and it would not swing smoothly at all. The poor child on the swing would be furious at you, as you’d be making his or her ride very uncomfortable. This unpleasant jiggling motion — this disturbance of the swing — is different from the swing’s natural and preferred back-and-forth regular motion just as a “virtual particle” disturbance is different from a real particle. If something makes a real particle, that particle can go off on its own across space. If something makes a disturbance, that disturbance will die away, or break apart, once its cause is gone. So it’s not like a particle at all, and I wish we didn’t call it that.

Fig. 1: Two electrons approach each other; they generate a disturbance in the electromagnetic field (the photon field); this disturbance pushes them apart, and their paths are bent outward. One says they "exchange virtual photons", but this is just jargon.
For example, an electron is a real particle, a ripple in the electron field; you can hold one in your hand, so to speak; you can make a beam of them and send them across a room or inside an 20th century television set (a cathode-ray tube). A photon, too, is a real particle of light, a ripple in the electromagnetic field, and you can make a beam of photons (as in a laser.) [Can’t have one in your hand though, since photons (in vacuum) are always moving.]
But if two electrons pass near each other, as in Figure 1, they will, because of their electric charge, disturb the electromagnetic field, sometimes called the photon field because its ripples are photons. That disturbance, sketched whimsically in green in the figure, is not a photon. It isn’t a ripple moving at the speed of light; in general isn’t a ripple at all, and certainly it is under no obligation to move at any one speed. That said, it is not at all mysterious; it is something whose details, if we know the initial motions of the electrons, can be calculated easily. Exactly the same equations that tell us about photons also tell us about how these disturbances work; in fact, the equations of quantum fields guarantee that if nature can have photons, it can have these disturbances too. Perhaps unfortunately, this type of disturbance, whose details can vary widely, was given the name “virtual particle” for historical reasons, which makes it sound both more mysterious, and more particle-like, than is necessary. [Students of math and physics will recognize real photons as solutions of a wave equation, and virtual photons as related to the Green function associated with this equation.]

Fig. 2: As in Figure 1, for a positron (an anti-electron) and an electron; now the slightly different disturbance causes the two particles to attract one another, and their paths are bent inward.
This disturbance is important, because the force that the two electrons exert on each other — the repulsive electric force between the two particles of the same electric charge — is generated by this disturbance. (The same is true if an electron and a positron pass near each other, as in Figure 2; the disturbance in this case is similar in type but different in its details, with the result that the oppositely charged electron and positron are attracted to each other.) Physicists often say, and laypersons’ books repeat, that the two electrons exchange virtual photons. But those are just words, and they lead to many confusions if you start imagining this word “exchange” as meaning that the electrons are tossing photons back and forth as two children might toss a ball. It’s not hard to imagine that throwing balls back and forth might generate a repulsion, but how could it generate an attractive force? The problem here is that the intuition that arises from the word “exchange” simply has too many flaws. To really understand this you need a small amount of math, but zero math is unfortunately not enough. It is better, I think, for the layperson to understand that the electromagnetic field is disturbed in some way, ignore the term “virtual photons” which actually is more confusing than enlightening, and trust that a calculation has to be done to figure out how the disturbance produced by the two electrons leads to their being repelled from one another, while the disturbance between an electron and a positron is different enough to cause attraction.

Fig. 3: An electron may naively be thought of as a ripple of minimum intensity --- the minimal ripple --- in an electron field. But the electron interacts with the photon field (i.e. the electromagnetic field) and can create a disturbance in it; in doing so it too ceases to be a normal particle and becomes a more general disturbance. The combination of the two disturbances (i.e. the two "virtual particles") remains a particle with the energy, momentum and mass of the incoming electron.
Now there are many other types of disturbances that fields can exhibit that are not particles. Another example, and scientifically one of the most important, shows up in the very nature of particles themselves. A particle is not as simple as I have naively described. Even to say a particle like an electron is a ripple purely in the electron field is an approximate statement, and sometimes the fact that it is not exactly true matters.
It turns out that since electrons carry electric charge, their very presence disturbs the electromagnetic field around them, and so electrons spend some of their time as a combination of two disturbances, one in in the electron field and one in the electromagnetic field. The disturbance in the electron field is not an electron particle, and the disturbance in the photon field is not a photon particle. However, the combination of the two is just such as to be a nice ripple, with a well-defined energy and momentum, and with an electron’s mass. This is sketchily illustrated in Figure 3.

Fig. 4: The Feynman diagram needed to calculate the process in Fig. 3. One says "the electron emits and reabsorbs a virtual photon", but this is just shorthand for the physics shown in Fig. 3.
The language physicists use in describing this is the following: “The electron can turn into a virtual photon and a virtual electron, which then turn back into a real electron.” And they draw a Feynman diagram that looks like Figure 4. But what they really mean is what I have just described in the previous paragraph. The Feynman diagram is actually a calculational tool, not a picture of the physical phenomenon; if you want to calculate how big this effect is, you take that diagram , translate it into a mathematical expression according to Feynman’s rules, set to work for a little while with some paper and pen, and soon obtain the answer.

Fig. 5: As in Figure 3, for a photon. The photon can become a disturbance in the electron field. This disturbance has some regions with negative electric charge and some with positive electric charge, but with total charge zero, like the incoming photon itself. The photon can do the same with other charged fields, such as the muon field.
Another example involves the photon itself. It is not merely a ripple in the electromagnetic field, but spends some of its time as an electron field disturbance, such that the combination remains a massless particle. The language here is to say that a photon can turn into a virtual electron and a virtual positron, and back again; but again, what this really means is that the electron field is disturbed by the photon. But why are we seeing a positron — an anti-electron — and yet I am only referring to the electron field? The reason ties back to the very reason that there are anti-particles in the first place: every field, by its very nature, has particle ripples and anti-particle ripples. For some fields (such as the photon field and Z field) these particle and anti-particle ripples are actually the same thing; but for fields like electrons and quarks, the particles and anti-particles are quite different. So what happens when the electron field is disturbed by a passing photon is that a disturbance is set up that has some electron-like disturbance with net negative electric charge, and some positron-like disturbance with net positive charge, but the disturbance as a whole, like the photon itself, carries no net charge at all.
For those who learned (and recall a bit of) freshman physics, what is happening is that the oscillating electric field that makes up the photon is polarizing the electron field — inducing a dipole moment. Remember dielectrics and how electric fields can polarize them? Well, the vacuum of empty space itself, because it has an electron field in it, is a polarizable medium — a dielectric of sorts.

Fig. 6: The Feynman diagram needed to calculate the process in Fig. 5. One says "photon becomes a virtual electron-positron pair", but this is just shorthand for the physics shown in Fig. 5.
The same is true, by the way, for all the other electrically charged fields, including those of the muon, the up quark, and so forth.
[Here, by the way, we come across another reason why “virtual particle” is a problematic term. I have had several people ask me something like this: “ Since the diagram in Figure 6 seems to show that the photon spends some of its time as made from two massive particles [recall the electron and the positron both have the same mass, corresponding to a mass-energy (E = m c-squared) of 0.000511 GeV], why doesn’t that give the photon a mass?” Part of the answer is that the diagram does not show that the photon spends part of its time as made from two massive particles. Virtual particles, which are what appear in the loop in that diagram, are not particles. They are not nice ripples, but more general disturbances. And only particles have the expected relation between their energy, momentum and mass; the more general disturbances do not satisfy these relations. So your intuition is simply misled by misreading the diagram. Instead, one has to do a real computation of the effect of these disturbances. In the case of the photon, it turns out the effect of this process on the photon mass is exactly zero.]

Fig. 7: The electron can generate disturbances in the photon field; the resulting photon disturbance can in turn create disturbances in other electrically charged fields, such as the muon field.
And it goes on from there. Our picture of an electron in Figure 3 was itself still too naive, because the photon disturbance around the electron itself disturbs the muon field, polarizing it in its turn. This is shown in Figure 7, and the corresponding Feynman diagram is shown in Figure 8. This goes on and on, with a ripple in any field disturbing, to a greater or lesser degree, all of the fields with which it directly or even indirectly has an interaction.

Fig. 8: The Feynman diagram needed to calculate the process shown in Figure 7.
So we learn that particles are just not simple objects, and although I often naively describe them as simple ripples in a single field, that’s not exactly true. Only in a world with no forces — with no interactions among particles at all — are particles merely ripples in a single field! Sometimes these complications don’t matter, and we can ignore them. But sometimes these complications are central, so we always have to remember they are there.
centrox
 
  1  
Fri 25 Aug, 2017 12:21 pm
@Susmariosep,
Susmariosep wrote:
From my part, I see that a lot of scientists take a lot of liberty with willfully making it appear that all kinds of mathematical constructs which are in their mind only

What matters about mathematical objects is what you can do with them, not the sense in which they can be said to exist.
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Fri 25 Aug, 2017 02:47 pm
@centrox,
[ Disclosure: I am not a mathematician nor a scientist, but an ordinary guy with a thinking curious mind, and I know the distinction between what is purely in our mind and what exists outside and independent of our mind. ]
___________________________________________

Quote:
From Centrox:
Quote:
From Susmariosep:
From my part, I see that a lot of scientists take a lot of liberty with willfully making it appear that all kinds of mathematical constructs which are in their mind only...
Quote:
From Centrox:
What matters about mathematical objects is what you can do with them, not the sense in which they can be said to exist.


The way I see mathematics of the what might be called abstract or perhaps pure mathematics, is that it is all in the mind of the enthusiasts of mathematics.

Now, scientists use mathematics to solve mind's problems, or even problems outside the mind and independent of the mind; then they wait to see what will occur in the course of time in the objective world outside the mind or man, that will confirm the answers they come to of their mind's problems, or even problems outside their mind but they seek to solve inside their mind.

What is an example of a problem that is only in the mind of mathematicians?

What about this one: how nothing really literally nothing can give rise to something outside and independent of man's mind: by assuming that nothing literally nothing at all in objective reality can and does lead to the existence of something outside man's mind?

That is a false problem, of course, but there are crazy mathematicians into that problem; still when you examine their thinking, it is not truly about nothing but something, which they use the word nothing to represent: thus they are talking dishonestly.

Example of that is one Lawrence Krauss with his crazy book on how nothing is the source of everything.

What about a problem that is really existing outside and independent of the mind of mathematicians, and they seek to solve it inside their mind with mathematics, and then seek to find how their solution works outside in the world of things existing in objective reality outside their mind?

For example, like in the olden days before the invention of calculus, how to map out in space and in time, the path of a canon ball: so that men who shot them from one ship to another ship in a battle in the seas could hit their enemies' ship.

What do you say about that, dear Centrox?

But nowadays, scientists who are also mathematicians, they have gone into taking mankind for fools, with their willful treatment of mathematical constructs, like the mental concepts truly exist outside and independent of their mind, like the nose in their and our face.
0 Replies
 
centrox
 
  1  
Fri 25 Aug, 2017 04:49 pm
Sumariosep, I say you are an extremely ignorant dickhead.
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Fri 25 Aug, 2017 06:39 pm
@centrox,
[Postscript: This post is addressed to Centrox, but dear Brian just read the end, it is addressed to you, and I thrill to give you a compliment: you are not one of the hateful herd here. ]
________________________________________


Well, dear Centrox, that is interesting that you end up also hurling a bad word on me.

You are not any unique your own person.

I was thinking that you have some talent of thinking for yourself, not going with the herd.

You see, I want to talk with people who have the capacity and habit to think and write for themselves.

The generality of people I meet in forums, sad to observe, they are like news in the internet, repetitions of news agencies.

Poor KIm Wall, she was an independent journalist, but she got killed doing her own thing with getting to interview strange people, and/or going to even dangerous places to report on her observation and opinion about her experiences.

Okay, dear Centrox, give me something that made you think, otherwise than calling me a dickhead in reaction, with reading my last post here prior to this one.

Dear readers here, let us all sit back and await with bated breath to witness whether Centrox will react to this post with his own very honest and sincere if of any cognitive substance delivered with web civility to my thinking, or react with hatred just like the generality of posters here, e.g. Izzy and Fresco and all the rest who can't resist reacting with hatred toward me on my thinking.

So far, I can say about Brian, he has not acted with hatred toward me, that shows that he is not among the hateful herd, but is his own person, being above hatred with reading my posts addressed to him.
0 Replies
 
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Fri 25 Aug, 2017 07:18 pm
@All readers and posters here:

This is an experiment from me, let you anyone read the post below in Annex, and tell me just one thing you disagree with me on, and if you can still think further, why - in just 50 words or less, but focused, not in vague generality like that it is not balanced whatever that is supposed to mean.

Annex
Quote:

Quote from Susmariosep starts • Post: # 6,491,253 • Susmariosep | Fri 25 Aug, 2017 02:47 pm
@centrox,

[ Disclosure: I am not a mathematician nor a scientist, but an ordinary guy with a thinking curious mind, and I know the distinction between what is purely in our mind and what exists outside and independent of our mind. ]

Quote:
Quote starts: From Centrox:
Quote:
From Susmariosep:
From my part, I see that a lot of scientists take a lot of liberty with willfully making it appear that all kinds of mathematical constructs which are in their mind only...

Quote: From Centrox:
What matters about mathematical objects is what you can do with them, not the sense in which they can be said to exist.
[ Quote from Centrox ends ]


The way I see mathematics of the what might be called abstract or perhaps pure mathematics, is that it is all in the mind of the enthusiasts of mathematics.

Now, scientists use mathematics to solve mind's problems, or even problems outside the mind and independent of the mind; then they wait to see what will occur in the course of time in the objective world outside the mind or man, that will confirm the answers they come to of their mind's problems, or even problems outside their mind but they seek to solve inside their mind.

What is an example of a problem that is only in the mind of mathematicians?

What about this one: how nothing really literally nothing can give rise to something outside and independent of man's mind: by assuming that nothing literally nothing at all in objective reality can and does lead to the existence of something outside man's mind?

That is a false problem, of course, but there are crazy mathematicians into that problem; still when you examine their thinking, it is not truly about nothing but something, which they use the word nothing to represent: thus they are talking dishonestly.

Example of that is one Lawrence Krauss with his crazy book on how nothing is the source of everything.

What about a problem that is really existing outside and independent of the mind of mathematicians, and they seek to solve it inside their mind with mathematics, and then seek to find how their solution works outside in the world of things existing in objective reality outside their mind?

For example, like in the olden days before the invention of calculus, how to map out in space and in time, the path of a canon ball: so that men who shot them from one ship to another ship in a battle in the seas could hit their enemies' ship.

What do you say about that, dear Centrox?

But nowadays, scientists who are also mathematicians, they have gone into taking mankind for fools, with their willful treatment of mathematical constructs, like the mental concepts truly exist outside and independent of their mind, like the nose in their and our face.

Quote from Susmariosep ends.
0 Replies
 
Susmariosep
 
  0  
Fri 25 Aug, 2017 08:46 pm
@All readers and posters here:

It is easy like Centrox to vent out hatred against me, and also others like Izzy and Fresco,* but it takes hard work in thinking, to contribute a useful, cognitively useful post to this most commendable a2k forum.

So, I will continue my experiment, to make you think instead of venting out hatred, by enumerating in separate lines my previous post: so that you can choose even just one line in the post, to think over it: as to concur with me, or not, but please also continue thinking as to give your reasons why - in not more than 50 words.

Why not more than 50 words? Because that requires you to really think instead of regurgitating undigested and wherefore un-assimilated thoughts from others who might also be into regurgitating stale matters from their in turn empty writers writing without any thinking, but dropping names and dropping technical terms and also even dropping un-decryptable verbiage, to pass for what? fake profundity [ erh, not profanity! ].

*In recent days, Izzy and Fresco have finally gotten tired with their hatred, I just hope they then graduate to do thinking instead of hating.

Okay, here is my post again, enumerated into line after line, for your convenience to just choose even just one line, to think on and to tell me you concur or not, and why.
Quote:
• Post: # 6,491,253 • Susmariosep | Fri 25 Aug, 2017 02:47 pm

1. The way I see mathematics of the what might be called abstract or perhaps pure mathematics, is that it is all [mathematical concepts] in the mind of the enthusiasts of mathematics.

2. Now, scientists use mathematics to solve mind's problems, or even problems outside the mind and independent of the mind;

3. then they wait to see what will occur in the course of time in the objective world outside the mind or man,

4. that will confirm the answers they come to of their mind's problems, or even problems outside their mind but they seek to solve inside their mind.

5. What is an example of a problem that is only in the mind of mathematicians?

6. What about this one: how nothing really literally nothing can give rise to something outside and independent of man's mind:

7. by assuming that nothing literally nothing at all in objective reality can and does lead to the existence of something outside man's mind?

8. That is a false problem, of course,

9. but there are crazy mathematicians into that problem; still when you examine their thinking,

10. it is not truly about nothing but something, which they use the word nothing to represent: thus they are talking dishonestly.

11. Example of that is one Lawrence Krauss with his crazy book on how nothing is the source of everything.

12. What about a problem that is really existing outside and independent of the mind of mathematicians, and they seek to solve it inside their mind with mathematics, and

13. then seek to find how their solution works outside in the world of things existing in objective reality outside their mind?

14. For example, like in the olden days before the invention of calculus, how to map out in space and in time, the path of a canon ball:

15. so that men who shot them from one ship to another ship in a battle in the seas could hit their enemies' ship.

16. What do you say about that, dear Centrox?

17. But nowadays, scientists who are also mathematicians, they have gone into taking mankind for fools,

18.with their willful treatment of mathematical constructs,

19.like the mental concepts truly exist outside and independent of their mind, like the nose in their and our face.
barmpot
 
  2  
Sat 26 Aug, 2017 06:10 am
@Susmariosep,
What a pathetic little creep you are ! I'm pleased to see that the respectable posters you have named have got more sense than responding to your moronic claims to be a 'thinker'. Every one of those guys has already wiped the floor with you as far as thinking is concerned.
I'd love to know what your home situation is regarding ' personal relationships' ....any murder threats yet ?
maxdancona
 
  0  
Sat 26 Aug, 2017 06:33 am
@barmpot,
What is the need for the personal attacks? What is the need to demolish someone personally over a disagreement about Physics. Not even I go that far.

You are going with "murder threats". What is this... middle school?

There is no need for this.
barmpot
 
  2  
Sat 26 Aug, 2017 08:45 am
@maxdancona,
Wise up !
(a) This has nothing to do with physics..the guy doesn't know any...its about attention seeking.
(b) This is the only forum which puts up with this behavior and he knows it and is milking it for all its worth !
(c) Direct your 'personal attacks' remarks to him ! He is an expert at that game.
0 Replies
 
Susmariosep
 
  0  
Sat 26 Aug, 2017 09:58 am
[ Postscript: please everyone, this is a long post, and I know you guys have very little attention span, so just proceed to the text in bold at the bottom, and make a contribution of cognitive worth to this a2k forum, that is in consonance to the No. 1 objective of its founders, owners, and operators. ]


@All posters and readers here, I am always trying to learn something in the way of genuine cognitive content, but so far I have met nothing from posters here except that they have a lot of unresolved hatred toward me: because I like to tell them things, like that God is in concept first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

Then I also want to tell people that the default status of things in the totality of reality is existence.

Furthermore, I like very much to continue with two more statements, namely:
1. Existence is either from oneself or from another.
2. Existence is in one's mind and/or outside and independent of our mind.

There, those are my most I see them to be, important contributions to the knowledge of mankind, which knowledge will enable any thinking human to come to the biggest picture of the totality of things in the default status of reality which is existence.

Please, everyone, I like very much to exchange thoughts with you guys, but I always find you all guys to be into nothing but hatred toward me.

So, it is obvious from your hatred toward me, that you have nothing to share with me but it is all hatred toward me, because you cannot like creatures of darkness, stand the light that I am always trying to shine into your brain, like the following thoughts from me:
1. God in concept is first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.
2. The default status of things in the totality of reality is existence.
3. Existence is either from oneself or from another.
4. Existence is in the mind and/or outside and independent of the mind i.e. of man.

So, there, that is what I like to tell everyone here in this a2k forum, for this forum is about the following declarations from its founders, owners, and operators:
Quote:
About able2know

able2know's mission is to help connect people, knowledge and resources.

able2know is committed to providing these services free of charge. We believe the costs of developing and providing these services should be defrayed primarily with ethical advertising -- that is, an avoidance of pop-ups, spam, or other unreasonably obtrusive forms of advertising.

We seek to maximize the opportunities for people with similar interests and goals to connect, gather information, and network through the able2know service.


Thank you, Oh ye founders and owners and operators of a2k.

Are you folks as you are serious with your purposes in this your forum, feeling so frustrated with the low standards of the active posters here?

I am frustrated with them, but I take courage and satisfaction with a2k, because I am able to write here my thoughts which I know to be of universal and eternal worth to thinking mankind, which the generality of posters who react to my thinking, they are not into thinking, but always into hatred and more hatred and more hatred, and then into feces and prepuce and glans penis.

What a waste of their God-given nature which entitles them to belong to the category called homo sapiens, i.e. man of wisdom.

Yes, that is my frustration, and I am also wondering how the founders and owners and operators of a3k cannot or they do also, get frustrated with the non-quality of posts from the generality of posters here.

Okay, in conclusion, I like very much to read something of cognitive worth with comments from you guys, at least once, instead of hatred and more hatred and more from your prepuce, with your reaction to my statements above, all Nos. 1 to 4.

0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Sat 26 Aug, 2017 10:22 am
@Susmariosep,
Quote:
Virtual particles are mathematical constructs in your mind.

Mathematical constructs are descriptions of something that has physically happened. Your mind and my mind can agree on the math and what it is describing, because both of our bodies are detecting the physical effects of the forces carried by the virtual particles in the same way. We know that our bodies are detecting them in the same way. We know this to be true because, when we describe mathematically what we are detecting seperately, we come up with the same math every time. You can argue whether or not our minds are physically real, but most people (including scientists and religious leaders) agree that Our bodies are real and what they are sensing is not just a figment of our imagination. I think this is true because, we are free to imagine what we want, but we always agree on the math describing what our bodies are sensing. The only way we could imagine the same thing all the time would be if we were all the same mind. I think there is enough evidence in science and religion to prove that isn't true.
0 Replies
 
Ponderer
 
  1  
Sat 26 Aug, 2017 10:33 am
The title of this forum is "Who is your favorite physicist ?" Amidst all the controversy, I interjected "Julius Sumner Miller". Not one "Who is that?"
Not one "Why?" Well, I'll tell you anyway. He very enthusiastically taught and demonstrated with great wonder and joy the basic laws of physics. I learned ( this might interest you, Susmariosep, as it relates gravity to mathematics) that hanging equal weights, equally spaced along a slack line will form a parabola. I used that knowledge to lay out the frame for a solar reflector.
I only learned within the past twenty years that nuclear power stations use nuclear reaction to make steam. That may be more efficient or cleaner that burning fuel, but it is still creating heat on a planet that has enough already.
Susmariosep
 
  -1  
Sat 26 Aug, 2017 10:49 am
@All readers and posters here.

Earlier yesterday, it is now in my place, August 27, 2017, Sunday, 0041 hours, as I prepare to send this post for a poster with a name that starts with 'laugh'.

Then my computer hanged or crashed whatever, so I never got to transmit the post at that point in time.

When I fixed the computer and tried to return to where I was, I noticed that it seems there was no longer a page 25 in the thread where I was before, and no poster with a name that starts with laugh.

I took some time to seek out that poster but without success, for I could not find any list of registered members in this a2k forum - there must be one, though, only I could not find it.

So, I am going to transmit now my post already written but not sent because as I said my computer hanged or it crashed whatever.
___________________________________________


Dear Laugh, thanks for reacting to my post.

You see, I have this explanation on how man knows God to exist, in concept first and foremost as the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

Here, I will repeat it again for the nth time.

We come from our parents and our parents come from theirs, this cannot go on backward endlessly; but when you want to be irrational with your brain, then you keep going backward from children to parents and their parents still backward to their parents.

All that is in your brain, just to be stubborn but definitely not into on and on and on without end, because you will die sooner than later: wherefore your stubborn backward regress in your brain ends - and no more abusing your brain anymore.

Now, let us go to the world outside the brain, and we know that some entity not having come from another entity, which such entity not owing his existence to another entity, I identify as God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning: He is the cause of us all, starting with having by His own power brought forth the very first parents.

There, that is the explanation for you and me and Glennn and all humans such as also all atheists to now be existing, namely: we exist from God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

You see, atheists think that they have a good objection against God in concept as the creator cause of everything, by just keeping on and on and on inside their brain tracing backward on and on and on, asking who brought forth whom, again and again and again, who brought forth whom.

But that is just silly and crazy, because thinking that way is not ever going to effect anything outside their brain to stop existing, which everything outside their brain, like you and me, have a beginning: wherefore they owe their existence to God.

That is what is called the fallacy of infinite regress, all in the brain of people who are not connected with reality, but are on the other hand stubborn in their extremely low intelligence.

That is the biggest picture of the reality of things in the default status of existence, which is that God exists, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

Now, you will ask me, dear Laugh, how God did it, creating everything that has a beginning.

That is the terrific job for us humans to figure out, but that He exists in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning: when you don't abuse your brain, you see to that from direct inference via your and my existence, and the existence of babies and roses, and the sun and the moon in the sky, etc., etc. etc.

You see scientists today are into breaking up more and more subatomic particles and hope to find the answer to existence, where does it come forth?

That is very stupid from their part, because breaking up more and more and more subatomic particles, if that be possible at all, forever and ever, that is not going to give them what they long for, a theory of everything.

What they will get is that they use their mathematics to identify more and more and more sub sub sub atomic particles, i.e. particles within particles, that now they have stopped counting.

But funny, they still want to spend taxpayers' money with their big big big 27 kilometer (17 mi) long Hadron Large Collider,* to fragmentalize more subatomic particles to no end.

And then to fashion with socalled theoretical physicists useless ideas about alternative universes which we cannot know and they cannot access us either - so, what is the use of such stupidities of speculation, nonsense at all, except that they are living very well on grants from hoodwinked by them poor taxpayers.

*The LHC is the world's largest and highest-energy particle accelerator. The collider is contained in a circular tunnel, with a circumference of 27 kilometres (17 mi), at a depth ranging from 50 to 175 metres (164 to 574 ft) underground.
Courtesy of google
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  0  
Sat 26 Aug, 2017 11:35 am
@Susmariosep,
Quote:
The best way to approach this concept, I believe, is to forget you ever saw the word "particle" In the term. A virtual particle is not a particle at all. It refers precisely to a disturbance in a field that is not a particle. A particle is a nice regular ripple in a field, one that can travel smoothly and effortlessly through space, like a clear tone of a bell moving through air. A "virtual particle", generally is a in a field that will never be found on its own, but instead is something that is caused by the presence of other particles, often of other fields.

You are correct in being frustrated with the physics community. The way your mind imagines reality is by imagining real things all the time. Math is describing real things all the time. I believe your quote from Matt has a couple serious errors in his assumptions.
Quote:
A virtual particle is not a particle at all.
. I believe, and think you would agree, that is a wrong assumption. The way most people "imagine" particles, a virtual particle is a particle. It takes up space, it moves freely as it interacts with other virtual particles that construct the fields that fill the vacuum of space and carry the forces we observe. The problem is, by definition he is correct in saying it does not fit the definition of a particle as defined by Physics.
Quote:
A "virtual particle", generally , is a disturbance in a field that will never be found on its own, but instead is something that is caused by the presence of other particles, often of other fields.
. Because of the way the field is constructed virtual particles are forced to group as a pair with another virtual particle that has the opposite spin. I believe, once all virtual particles are paired they interlock with the rest of the virtual particles constructing the field and appear to us humans sensing the field that it is one large universe wide entity. That is similar to the way our mind senses the atmosphere. We know it is made up of individual atoms, but we sense the wind as on entity engulfing the entire Earth.
The physics world is discussing this concept right now in String Theory, Quantum Gravity, Higgs boson, Borde, Guth Viliken Theory, and Entropic Gravity. This is bringing in a paradigm shift in the physics world where old words are being in counter intuitive ways. This paradigm shift is a shift from space have little to no structure except for occasional disturbances, to a space made up of a structure of nearly perfect order. This type of space is necessary to fulfill the requirements of the theories I listed above. Theories that are giving real answers to why we sense what we sense, rather than just telling us how. The paradigm shift is happening and cannot be stopped, so be patient. Your frustrations are shared but, they will not be in vain.
fresco
 
  1  
Sat 26 Aug, 2017 12:12 pm
@brianjakub,
You appear to be well read in the shifting paradigmatics of current physics. However, I would advise you that such ideas are over the heads of many A2K posters, and completely irrelevent,and incomprehesible to the posting interests of your current adressee.
If you would like to discuss current concepts of 'quantum gavity' for example as proposed in Rovelli's 2017 book, I would suggest you start a new thread.
Susmariosep
 
  0  
Sat 26 Aug, 2017 12:21 pm
@brianjakub,
Dear Brian, again I must commend your equanimity!

Now, you tell me:
"You are correct in being frustrated with the physics community. The way your mind imagines reality is by imagining real things all the time. Math is describing real things all the time. [...] "

Again, I see that we have not concurred on what is our mutually agreed on concept of real as things in our face like the nose is real.

You, to my observation, are of the mind that subatomic particles are real as real as the nose in our face.

My thinking is that subatomic particles in most particular socalled virtual particles, they are not real, not as real as the nose in our face, but they are mathematical constructs in the mind of physicists-mathematicians.

That is why I am of the insight that there are things which humans claim to exist, but they are not like the nose in our face, for these things in most particular like virtual particles, they only exist in the mind of man.

Is there another mind aside from the mind of man?

That is what I like to invite all fellow humans to think about, again we have to use our mind, but after thinking about the question, we have then to go into the world outside our mind, to look for whatever outside our mind corresponding to the concept we worked out in our mind.

So, dear Brian, what is your concept of real?

It is that when which mathematicians have succeeded to contrive a mathematical construct inside their mind, that is already real?

The way I see it, that is not real because it does not impact on us like the nose in our face, here is why:

You tell us virtual particles are real, so we keep quiet and go about life without any care about banging into any virtual particles at all.

But when we do not give careful attention to the nose in our face, we could bang our nose in the darkness against a concrete wall, then we have a broken nose or at least a bloodied nose, which is not any indifferent experience at all, but it requires us to see a doctor, all which impacts into our life in the way of trouble with losing time and also money, and then also discomfort and embarrassment.

So, the keyword here is experience.

Can anymore experience a virtual particle in any way at all, outside of the mathematical construct in the minds of physicists?
 

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