Is debate possible between ignoramuses?How is it possible

doyouknowhim-

If you know any relevant facts let us know and then we can decide.

Oh-learn to spell before you come on the alpha channel.This waspy thread represents the pinnacle of civilised man's intellectual development don't you know.And we are going all the way 'til the wheels fall off and burn.

spendius.

And don't edit your post because it'll make me look stupid.

Welcome anyway.There's room but it gets a bit hot sometimes.You can burn your nose here.

Lola-

Sorry about that.Its always happening to me.I'm chatting this classy bint up in the pub and in comes these turnips with some mush and I have to see 'em off before they have a chance to reveal that they are multimillionaire football stars or somesuch and carry her off into a life of utter boredom and degradation where animality and cash substitute for poetic imagination and intellectual intercourse which I know she would hate as I wouldn't be chatting her up otherwise.

Rank weeds and bluster are okay as long as you lay it on thick enough to induce a smile.Assertion is also all-right too but not if you don't know its an assertion and its worse if you think your hearer does't know either.Hypocrisy I will leave alone except to say "where would we be without it?"

What a glorious end Shakespeare gave to Hamlet though.

Horatio

"Now cracks a noble heart.--Good night,sweet prince;
And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!--"

Just words.(NOT IN SALE).

Definitely a Type 2.The epitome in fact.Will remain so.

Not all women are Type 1s.There are exceptions.Madame Curie for instance.It killed her.
I will let you decide about men.The first step to Type2 status is realising the distinction between the two types.Once there there's something to work on.
Its the aim of my thread.Type 2s have my sense of humour.I'm not there yet but I will be.
I certainly was not suggesting the types line up on gender.It has nothing to do with gender.It has to do with doing your homework.The evidence I see for Type 1 males beats my head in every night of the week.I agree you can have a bit of fun with them but they don't like it and if you mix it with alcohol you can get your teeth knocked out.Mild fun.

It is surely apparent that when the tortured enjoy it it ceases to be torture.Try going a bit further (only a bit) and see what happens.See if you can make 'em weep.At least that will cure their ignorance of the deeper needs of the Goddess.There are some European movies which get close.That Baywatch stuff is strictly for Type 1s.

And no biting please.

spendius.

I don't bite, spendius........healthwise it's not a good idea anymore. But I do make em cry sometimes........it's just that I know that what hurts is what pleases for type 1s. Since they feel too guilty to get their pleasure directly, they have to have it the other way..........sad method, but often encountered. It's called secondary gain in the biz.

I've had my multimillionare........now I'm ready for some good aggressive sex........oops, how unladylike of me. Sex mixed with intellect is purely irresistable to me......call me a hedonist and I'll answer. I never go for the consolation prize when I can have the real thing.....and it's delightful to find it.

Marie Curie was a great scientist......and she could definitely live without the reassurance of the over simplified answer. Remind me though, how did it kill her?

If the crazy Christians don't get me, I may get myself eventually, but I hope to be quite old before it happens. I agree with Woody Allen on this. I don't mind dying, I just don't want to be there when it happens.

A womon does have an advantage with it comes to torture. And if her technique is subtle......it's quite safe as long as she's willing to be heartless. I am sympathetic with you men however.........it's not fun getting your teeth bashed. All I have to do is bat my eyelashes and it renders the other helpless with no recourse. It's not always true when I'm torturing women........ however, I've actually never had much of a problem. I can scratch and hiss as well as the next woman. And I think battle scars only indicate a strong character.

I sound so mean and crass.......I worry sometimes that I am.

If scars are the measure, I guess that means I've become quite the character.

he he, Timber........me too.

First things first.
As I understand it Mme Curie died from exposure to radioactivity due to the ignorance at the time of the effects of such things.It is often the fate of pioneers as you know.RIP.
You make it sound as though biting was a conscious choice.I discovered to my cost on more than one occasion that it is a reflex which happens at the culmination of a gamut of early warnings.

Any male rendered "helpless" by the batting of eyelashes is a typical Type 1.Unless,of course,the batting is ironic and seen to be so.

I don't necessarily think that your subjects are Type 1s.There are perfectly adequate reasons,intellectual reasons,for submission to female inspirations concerning male ego squash and limits are not applicable for fundamentalists.It is when there are limits that Type 1 behaviour is exhibited.Type 2s tend towards celibacy as the lesser of two evils.The middle way is but the middle way.It takes co-operation for granted.That's why fees are involved.

"...good aggressive sex"eh?Well-its not all that unladylike actually.I know a bunch of top notch steel erectors if ever you feel the need.

I agree with Woody all the way.I just wish he wouldn't play that sodding clarinet.

You can't mix sex and intellect.You can have intellectual sex which is roughly what the CPD are up to on the budget or unintellectual sex which is what rabbits do.The former concerns the creation of attenuated mental states and the latter is just lust.

Battle scars represent strategic failure of one sort or another.More than one signify a retarded learning capacity.Those are first principles of the Sumerian Chicken religion.

spendius.

what do the sumerian chickens know anyway?

Lola-

When to run away and how to avoid flying.The modern chicken,as you know it, is a temporary phenemenon in the inexorable progress of evolution.

spendius.

My my- you are up a bit early.That's not very ladylike.

On checking I found I had got my types mixed up a bit.
Type 2 is where you start life from.
School renders you into Type 1 if you're not watching.
Type 2 is where to get back to.
I edited my post and realised that I had proved Omar incorrect with the "moving finger" quatrain.

spendius.

Lola-

We got a longish programme on BBC Four last night on The Natural History Of The Chicken.It was in the Storyville genre.Truly wonderful.It was American too.Irony is not dead in your wonderful country after all.
I feel sorry for you all though if you have to see programmes like that with ads coming in all the time.BBC Four is a must get wherever you are.
It certainly showed why the Chicken was the sacred animal of the founding civilisation of man.

spendius.

Home at last.........so much travelling and holidays. The sun is shinning in Manhattan today and though it will be dark in two hours, it's still a lovely winter day here. It's so good to be home.

I was up early yesterday, spendius. And yes, it was unladylike indeed. I was travelling. And when I got home, I had some celebrating to do. But today is a different story, I've finally decided to get out of bed and see the sun before it goes away until tomorrow. This is the only thing I dislike about Winter........so many hours of darkness. Not that it can't be very cozy in the dark, mind. My bed was so cozy and pleasant today, a perfect place to practice beguiling torpidity. So I decided to go for sleeping and snuggle. And I think I'll not change from my nighty today in order to make up for all the energetic work I've been doing as Santa Mom.

Who produced the Chicken program? If it was PBS, we might see it without ads. I almost never watch commercial programming on the television, I hate having to wait for the next part while 10 ads are playing. However, I love advertising. It can be cleaver and entertaining of itself. I try to see worthy programs on DVD after the season is complete. That way I can see as much of it as I want to and stop when I please. My preference is to have pleasure in large doses.



Now the delivery of "top notch steel erectors" sounds promising.........however, I'm pretty well tied up at the moment with a bit of steel of my own.



Lust with intellect is possible, dear spendius. While intellect without lust is still entertaining.....and of course sex is everything so it's always lust however disguised.....lust without intellect is, I find, clumsy and dull. So those steel erectors need only apply if they can be not only intelligent, but a bit artsy as well. It takes an artist to f**k. Anyone can have sex.

Yes, like Madame Cure, many of her assistants and colleagues died from the effects of over exposure to radiation as well. It is, I agree, often the price of the work of the pioneer. It's always best to pioneer with caution, when possible. But too much caution can rob a life of maximum fruition.

Drink! for you know not whence you came nor why: drink! for you know not why you go, nor where.

Lola:-

I have,I'm afraid,no choice but to disagree.Lust and intellect do not mesh.They are mutually cancelling factors.No sooner does an intellect engage itself objectively (a seemingly necessary tautology) with what it is doing in this respect,and in all other respects as well,it laughs at the absurdity and lust droops.When lust is engaged it is entirely subjective and hence lonely,selfish and at the end of it's tether.
If you take eating out as an example.Intellectuals don't allow themselves to be seen eating.This is because they see eating as an aspect of animality and as such it is anathema.An intellectual is not prepared to join in a general self serving conspiracy to pretend that eating is anything other than what it is.Socrates ate dried bread in a dark corner.I dare you to watch closely a hungry,fat woman shovelling potatoes,munching and swallowing remembering,as is unavoidable without repression,where it's going and what it's inevitable destiny is.The elaborate conspiciousness of the menu is nothing other than a thin veneer to aid the diners in their repression strategies.That only washes with those who have a need for it so to do and spendius is not of that religious persuasion.When the fat lady gets to the steak I would recommend you avert your eyes.Once the idea of "taste" appears you are back with the T1s and you then need a course in IA Richards.(A Cambridge man from before the onset of fatuity).

From the male T2 perspective intellect without lust is the only game in town.He is permanently interested not just in spasms.
You can't just say that lust without intellect is clumsy.There's the balance between lust and intellect and the level of the clumsiness.Surely zero clumsiness is the ideal.The principle,which is everything to a T2 if he's not in Room 101,which I'm not,you have actually conceded unless you say that it is the intellect side that causes the clumsiness.Any clumsiness will grate on the nerves after just a few repetitions.
We will have to see what a female perspective is.We have a few signposts so far which are somewhat confusing.

Its the same with "caution".A T2 always proceeds with cauion as if he is charting a path through a minefield.The ones who follow him can afford to mess about with their words.

spendius.

For those intellectuals or T2s who are unable to suspend their contemplations for a few hours in order to make use of their abandonment to lust, the world must be a a lonely place.

Lust alone would get monotonous without thought processes. I like both. Give me an intellectual any day. If he's having difficulty giving in, I can usually find a way to help him out with that. It's my female function.

Lola:-

Yes.It is lonely.

I remember seeing Dylan sing I Dreamed I Saw St Augustine from the front row.

When he sang the line-
"So go on your way accordingly
And know you're not alone."

I liked that a lot.But we are alone.

spendius.

Yes, we are alone.......but there is a temporary remedy for that condition, it is after all the business of life to find someone with whom to get down.

Lola:-

It isn't a "temporary remedy".There is no remedy.

It is a carefully crafted delusion in company with a like mind or minds.

spendius.

Delusion is the work of mankind......what else do we have to do with our time?

Lola:-

We can think.We are thinking machines after all.It is that which distinguishes us from the baser forms of organic life.More or less everything you do,even in your dreams,is a function of thinking men.The delusions are simply a measure of the loss of control over our real nature and have no hope of taking the human project into a perfectible future.
One can't give up on that.It is unthinkable.
The people in my pub defend their delusions with a determination that tells me that their sanity,such as it is,depends upon them.They are not even aware that their marriages have been carefully arranged for them by a system of institutions,habits of thought,or that their reproduction rate is controlled by mechanisms originating in military strategy.I often feel like patting them gently on the head or chucking them under the chin with a "there-there" accompaniament.They have absolutely no conception that gift giving is an aggressive act.
How can ignoramuses of that stamp debate anything at all.They have nothing to debate.What they do is a form of mutual succour.A sort of "I'll prop up your delusion if you'll prop up mine.It's very sweet and touching.
And yet-out of this lumpen mass of T1s there emerges from time to time,due to some biological or sociological freak,a different type.Going back 3,000 years you will know most of them by name.
A T2 is never lonely in the company of their messages and without them where would we be.And we don't know most of their names at all.The only evidence we have of them is what they left behind.A vibrating taut string for example.Who was that man who discovered an attractive sound in a taut string being twanged.He was before Homer.I hope it got him the pick of the ladies.Who first discovered the trick of recognising that the pearl he found on a dive was capable of exerting a magical influence on the chief's daughter.
How can one have a debate with people who take such things for granted as if they were leaves on a tree.Everything in the human environment derives from T2s.It's wonderful.I love it.
Mahler's Eighth was broadcast here last week.See that with the taut string magician in mind and weep with joy.

spendius.

Are we disagreeing? Are you sure? I'm an intellectual and I don't mind eating. I enjoy it as much as I can without over doing it, that is. I have to watch my calories and it won't do for me to be 5 pounds over weight. One needs to recognize the value of the animal nature of man in order be a true intellectual.

Thinking and feeling are both brain functions, after all. As a matter of fact a feeling contains ideas, otherwise we'd have nothing to feel about. Not to over simplify, but for conversation's sake.......the prefrontal cortex is the spot for thinking and planning. The functions of the prefrontal cortex are the following:

http://www.brainplace.com/bp/brainsystem/limbic.asp



Emotions are experienced through the limbic system. The limbic system is, from an evolutionary standpoint, an older part of the human brain. So, in a way, it's the animal in us. Limbic system functions include the following:

http://www.brainplace.com/bp/brainsystem/frontallobes.asp



How well the brain functions in the experience and management of mood depends on many factors. Some of us prefer thinking over feeling. Some of us, the other way around.



So your questions about the feminine perspective may find an answer here. Remember, however that the above is true of the average woman. Some women are more like men than are some men. So let's not over generalize.

Anyway.......those are my thoughts on the matter. Don't take them as feminine however because I think I have a less than average deep limbic system than the average female.

Lola:-

I have been a bit distracted here.

I think there is some disagreement.I recognise the value of the animal nature of man but I see it as a weakness for intellectual purposes whereas you think not.You might be accused,not by me of course,of trying to have it both ways and if you were I would stand back and listen to the argument.
I don't suppose you have read A Materialist Theory of Mind.It does dispose of some of your quotes.Not that everybody accepts the theory mind you.

There is a connection between intellect and what I might call "animal promptings" especially as regards sex.It depends how "sex" is defined.
I came across another term for the older part of the human brain a while back but I can't recall it.It was more poetic than limbic system though.I am not surprised that females have bigger limbics than us inseminaters.I noticed early on that they were more animalistic.I'm disappointed to hear that you have a lower than average limbic quotient.How does that work out in practice?The traditional English Rose is generally limbicly unchallenged if that lot in the pub on New Year's Eve is anything to go by.By midnight they were 100% limbicals.I had to hide.

I have a post waiting on T1/T2 for you but it is too late now as it is fairly long by my standards.

Stay warm.

spendius.