Separation of Church and State

I think Tress' criticism of the NYC school system in this instance is well-taken. I've not got links to provide, and don't really care; i do know that there have been cases taken to court to prevent school districts from setting aside facilities for bible-study groups, and court cases to end christian prayer before the beginning sporting events. I believe such cases are valid, and that schools should never involve themselves in religious practices. To that extent, i consider it wrong for the NYC schools to have made special arrangements for muslims.

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absolutely

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The key to democracy is it is the same for all, whether it is a lesser group or the majority. However, there has to be a concerted effort to keep it majority from bullying! Smile

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Tres

The info you provided didn't mention 'during the school day', and I'd assumed this was outside of school hours much in the manner of a room allocated after school for an audio-visual club or a philosophy club meeting.

I'm apparently not so firm on this matter as setanta and dys appear to be, and see no good reason to disallow such a 'faith club' meeting during after school hours. Pre-game or class prayers are a different matter as all attendees are obliged by their presence to be involved.

Reserving a room during school hours seems something else, if merely because of the consequences which may follow when other faith groups with special prayer schedules or rituals might justifiably demand equal accomodation.

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A point on the NYC issue. The Muslim faith requires prayer 5 times/day equeally spaced between sunrise and sunset. Just as the 1st Amendment ALSO prevents the government from preventing anyone from practicing their faith. Demanding the Muslim school children attend school during hours established by the government on days defined by the government and using that to deny them their ability to practice their faith violates the 1st Amendment more so than allowing a designated room paid for with tax dollars to be used to prayer sessions does.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Wouldn't mandatory school attendance laws infringe on their free exercise?????

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fishin': also applies to the workplace.

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It seems like Jewish holidays are the parallel, here -- Jewish kids are not required to attend on Rosh Hashanah et al.

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fishin' wrote:

A point on the NYC issue. The Muslim faith requires prayer 5 times/day equeally spaced between sunrise and sunset. Just as the 1st Amendment ALSO prevents the government from preventing anyone from practicing their faith. Demanding the Muslim school children attend school during hours established by the government on days defined by the government and using that to deny them their ability to practice their faith violates the 1st Amendment more so than allowing a designated room paid for with tax dollars to be used to prayer sessions does.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Wouldn't mandatory school attendance laws infringe on their free exercise?????

fishin - That would be a good point if anyone were forcing Muslim parents to put their children in government schools. The government mandates that children be schooled, not that they attend public schools.

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trespassers will wrote:

fishin - That would be a good point if anyone were forcing Muslim parents to put their children in government schools. The government mandates that children be schooled, not that they attend public schools.

Entirely irrelevant in my view. The state has created the mandate and provides for the overwhelming majority of schools in this country. The schools can't discriminate based on religion nor can they inhibit the following of one's religious mandates without running afoul of the Constitution.

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We've had a tricky problem here in Canada with our fairly large Sikh population. A portion of that community adheres strictly to traditions of dress including the turban and a ceremonial dagger. Though the turban has caused some few problems (say, where a uniform requires a hat to be worn) but the dagger has been a real issue in schools. My understanding is that all cases arriving at provincial superior court level have been in favor of allowance for the wearing the dagger.

fishin's point is a good one. I'd advanced the hypothetical of 'what might other faiths' requirements be and how might they effect the functioning of a school (hours, spaces, resources) which might possibly be a very real concern to principals and school boards who are deeply pressed for dollars as it is. But as a liberty issue, I think fishin has it right.

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trespassers will wrote:

fishin' wrote:
A point on the NYC issue. The Muslim faith requires prayer 5 times/day equeally spaced between sunrise and sunset. Just as the 1st Amendment ALSO prevents the government from preventing anyone from practicing their faith. Demanding the Muslim school children attend school during hours established by the government on days defined by the government and using that to deny them their ability to practice their faith violates the 1st Amendment more so than allowing a designated room paid for with tax dollars to be used to prayer sessions does.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

Wouldn't mandatory school attendance laws infringe on their free exercise?????

fishin - That would be a good point if anyone were forcing Muslim parents to put their children in government schools. The government mandates that children be schooled, not that they attend public schools.

...so, if Muslims don't like our schools, they can go back to ...wherever?

Hmmm...

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well yeah snood, its the christian thing to do. if they don't like our "freedom of religion" they can just go back to where they came from. we all know they are free to be any kind of christian they want to be so whats their beef?

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fishin' wrote:

trespassers will wrote:
fishin - That would be a good point if anyone were forcing Muslim parents to put their children in government schools. The government mandates that children be schooled, not that they attend public schools.

Entirely irrelevant in my view. The state has created the mandate and provides for the overwhelming majority of schools in this country. The schools can't discriminate based on religion nor can they inhibit the following of one's religious mandates without running afoul of the Constitution.

Wrong. The government does not force parents to put their kids in public schools, and does not make such religious compensations for anyone else. You need only consult news stories on this to see that the schools themselves don't agree with you, nor have they taken this action until trying to prove how open to Muslims they were after 9/11. (This policy has NEVER existed in NYC schools before. No special dispensation was made for any student of any religion prior to this.

I wonder if you would be so cavalier about this had they set aside classroom space for Christians to pray.

snood, is it possible that you actually couldn't understand my point, or are you just being contrary for no reason?

THEY CAN GO TO ANY SCHOOL THEY CHOOSE, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. Got it? Rolling Eyes

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It's probably the 'don't understand' thing, I mean after all, you communicate on such a higher, more profound level.

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Well, if you can't understand, I can't see that it's my problem.

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dyslexia wrote:

well yeah snood, its the christian thing to do. if they don't like our "freedom of religion" they can just go back to where they came from. we all know they are free to be any kind of christian they want to be so whats their beef?

dyslexia - I've assumed up until now that you're a lot smarter than this. Was I wrong?

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yeah, you were wrong

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Usually is!

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timber

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Bill

Though I frequently disagree with Tres on a variety of issues, his posts are consistently as thorough in reasoning as most anyone else here, and they are helpful in the provision of links and background data, etc. We learn nothing talking only with folks who agree with us, yes?

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