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What does everybody think about the soldier , shooting that?

 
 
Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 08:02 pm
revel wrote:
For the love of God he did not commit perjury. He was not ever convicted as such nor did he commit it. He said that he did not have sexual relations which was technically true according to the Paula Jones Attorney's own definition of the term "sexual relations". In other words according to their definition, oral sex is not sexual relations, so he did not commit perjury which is why he was never legally convicted of perjury.


just saw a clip from Peter Jennings interview with Clinton where Jennings asked him about his being ranked 41st by historians in moral authority. Clinton said they are wrong. Why? Because they are wrong?

He said they are wrong because he was the "victim" of a press that reported his misdeeds.

The man is still in serious denial and refusing to accept responsibility for his actions.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 08:12 pm
Larry434 wrote:
The man is still in serious denial and refusing to accept responsibility for his actions.


Your quintessential Democrat ... what else would you expect?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 08:19 pm
so clinton had no basis for his comment to Peter, on the other hand at the time that the networks were selling hot stories from Starr, Clinton was at the UN warning of the threat of terroism, the press was not interest (it didn't sell all that well in those days) I would think both the left and the right would see that major news media is far more concerned with "hot" stories than valuable information. But hey, I'm just a radical liberal, what would I know from good journalism. Beat the drums slowly my friends but beat them loud.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 08:24 pm
We're in step there, Dys, even if we march in different directions.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 08:35 pm
damn Timberland, sometimes you make we wish I was a democrat and had voted, at least once, for Clinton. Very Happy
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 08:38 pm
Hang in there ... Kucinich will rise again ... Laughing
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 08:45 pm
McGentrix wrote:
The soldier was wrong to act as he did. He was in a mosque where many Muslims will seek shelter. The soldier did not have enough information to become judge, jury, executioner. He should have reported the movement to his immediate superior in the squad who then could have made a decision as how to treat the situation.

Our soldiers are trained and conditioned for battle. They are supposed to be disciplined and know right from wrong.


Thank you, McGentrix. A professional judgement.

(Personally, I can understand why the soldier did what he did, considering the state and situation he was in. But I also still think it was wrong. And I'm thinking that perhaps people who were shot in their face the day before should not be allowed back into the fighting yet. A clear mind is pivotal to doing your duty right, it seems to me, after all.)
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Nov, 2004 11:23 pm
Quote:
This is one story of many that people normally don't hear, and one that everyone does.

This is just one most don't hear:

A young Marine and his cover man cautiously enter a room just recently filled with insurgents armed with AK-47s and RPGs. There are three dead, another wailing in pain. The insurgent can be heard saying, "Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor (doctor)!" He is badly wounded, lying in a pool of his own blood. The Marine and his cover man slowly walk toward the injured man, scanning to make sure no enemies come from behind. In a split second, the pressure in the room greatly exceeds that of the outside, and the concussion seems to be felt before the blast is heard. Marines outside rush to the room, and look in horror as the dust gradually settles. The result is a room filled with the barely recognizable remains of the deceased, caused by an insurgent setting off several pounds of explosives.

The Marines' remains are gathered by teary-eyed comrades, brothers in arms, and shipped home in a box. The families can only mourn over a casket and a picture of their loved one, a life cut short by someone who hid behind a white flag. But no one hears these stories, except those who have lived to carry remains of a friend, and the families who loved the dead. No one hears this, so no one cares.

This is the story everyone hears:

A young Marine and his fire team cautiously enter a room just recently filled with insurgents armed with AK-47s and RPGs. There are three dead, another wailing in pain. The insurgent can be heard saying, "Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor (doctor)!" He is badly wounded. Suddenly, he pulls from under his bloody clothes a grenade, without the pin. The explosion rocks the room, killing one Marine, wounding the others. The young Marine catches shrapnel in the face.

The next day, same Marine, same type of situation, a different story. The young Marine and his cover man enter a room with two wounded insurgents. One lies on the floor in puddle of blood, another against the wall. A reporter and his camera survey the wreckage inside, and in the background can be heard the voice of a Marine, "He's moving, he's moving!"

The pop of a rifle is heard, and the insurgent against the wall is now dead.

Minutes, hours later, the scene is aired on national television, and the Marine is being held for committing a war crime. Unlawful killing.

And now, another Marine has the possibility of being burned at the stake for protecting the life of his brethren. His family now wrings their hands in grief, tears streaming down their face. Brother, should I have been in your boots, I too would have done the same.

For those of you who don't know, we Marines, Band of Brothers, Jarheads, Leathernecks, etc., do not fight because we think it is right, or think it is wrong. We are here for the man to our left, and the man to our right. We choose to give our lives so that the man or woman next to us can go home and see their husbands, wives, children, friends and families.

For those of you who sit on your couches in front of your television, and choose to condemn this man's actions, I have but one thing to say to you. Get out of you recliner, lace up my boots, pick up a rifle, leave your family behind, and join me. See what I've seen, walk where I have walked. To those of you who support us, my sincerest gratitude. You keep us alive.

I am a Marine currently doing his second tour in Iraq. These are my opinions and mine alone. They do not represent those of the Marine Corps or of the U.S. military, or any other.


Link
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 12:35 am
nimh wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
The soldier was wrong to act as he did. He was in a mosque where many Muslims will seek shelter. The soldier did not have enough information to become judge, jury, executioner. He should have reported the movement to his immediate superior in the squad who then could have made a decision as how to treat the situation.

Our soldiers are trained and conditioned for battle. They are supposed to be disciplined and know right from wrong.


Thank you, McGentrix. A professional judgement.

(Personally, I can understand why the soldier did what he did, considering the state and situation he was in. But I also still think it was wrong. And I'm thinking that perhaps people who were shot in their face the day before should not be allowed back into the fighting yet. A clear mind is pivotal to doing your duty right, it seems to me, after all.)


Far too pat of a response McGen.

Our soldiers may be the most highly trained in the world, but no training will lead to perfection.

That far more of such incidents do not occur is testimony to the quality of our armed forces. If the armies of other nations received the same media scrutiny devoted to ours, these sorts of stories would barely make the first column of page eight.

Of course this doesn't mean that our transgressions are acceptable, but we need to examine any such transgressions in context.

I am inclined to give the young man the benefit of the doubt.

We know that the insurgents had made a practice of feigning death in order to draw US soldiers close enough to do them harm. As Ticomaya's story suggests, there is precious little appreciation for the death of a soldier who gets sucked into such a trap rather than risking the chance of killing a helpless, wounded insurgent.

We are asking more of these young men than we ask of ourselves. I think it's asking too much that they risk their lives so that we avoid politically embarrassing videos.

This is, after all, war.

This incident is not Abu Ghraib, it is not Mai Lai, it is not, by any stretch of the imagination, an atrocity or war crime.

It is incredibly foolish to proceed into a war without expecting that these sort of incidents will happen, and it would be a disgrace if this young man were, in any way, punished for it.
0 Replies
 
Idaho
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 08:12 am
Okay, so now let's look at what happens if this marine is found guilty of war crimes.

A young marine and his cover man enter a room with two wounded insurgents. One lies on the floor in a puddle of blood, another against the wall. A reporter and hsi camera survey the wreckage inside, and in the background can be heardthe voice of a Marine, "He's moving, he's moving!" Then, the marine hesitates, conflicted - does he ensure his companions are safe, or walk up and risk death for them all?

The pop of a rifle is heard, and the view from the camera changes as the camera falls to the floor in the dead hands of the journalist. "He's armed! Fire! Fire!" A scatter of rifle fire is heard as the terrorist is shot and killed, but too late for the journalist. "Man down! Get the paramedics" The same young men who were endanged by that journalist, fight to save his life, but it's too late.

News reporters across the nation report on how lax the soldiers were, how they should have know beens smarter, fought better and the journalist wouldn't have died. Now the brave journalist is a hero and the marine is castigated.

It's a Catch-22.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:07 am
I sorta think the Catch-22 is broader ... it encompases military action blanketly. There always will be some who fault anything done by the military. I surmise there are those unwilling or unable to comprehend that combat by nature is a dynamic condition consisting of moment-to-moment life-or-death decision points, a condition unique in the human experience, a condition condignly unforgiving of equivocation.

Notable to me is the elevation by some of what may indeed have been a reasonable and thoroughly defensible, even if reprehensible, incident to an exemplar of outrage, while those same by their silence condone the practices of the taking and beheading of hostages, the conduct of offensive action from behind the shelter of the civilian populace, and the directing of indiscriminately lethal action toward that civilian populace.

Notable as well, at least to my perception, is that the condemnatory leap to judgement in this matter appears to be concentrated within, if not exclusive to, a demographic which shares the characteristics of lack of combat experience and predisposition toward negative assessment of US conduct in general.

I offer that it is my impression that in this as in so many other things, those who talk the loudest have no idea of what they are talking about. The one thing Monday Morning Quarterbacks have in common is that they were not on the field for Sunday's game.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:12 am
Well, all in all, the facts of the matter never seem to add to a conclusion, It's always the image that counts and this one doesn't look good.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:22 am
timberlandko wrote:
I sorta think the Catch-22 is broader ... it encompases military action blanketly. There always will be some who fault anything done by the military. I surmise there are those unwilling or unable to comprehend that combat by nature is a dynamic condition consisting of moment-to-moment life-or-death decision points, a condition unique in the human experience, a condition condignly unforgiving of equivocation.

Notable to me is the elevation by some of what may indeed have been a reasonable and thoroughly defensible, even if reprehensible, incident to an exemplar of outrage, while those same by their silence condone the practices of the taking and beheading of hostages, the conduct of offensive action from behind the shelter of the civilian populace, and the directing of indiscriminately lethal action toward that civilian populace.

Notable as well, at least to my perception, is that the condemnatory leap to judgement in this matter appears to be concentrated within, if not exclusive to, a demographic which shares the characteristics of lack of combat experience and predisposition toward negative assessment of US conduct in general.

I offer that it is my impression that in this as in so many other things, those who talk the loudest have no idea of what they are talking about. The one thing Monday Morning Quarterbacks have in common is that they were not on the field for Sunday's game.



Those Monday Morning Quarterbacks included my son's ROTC cadre (that would include both non-commissioned officers on up to the major who runs the show) who have soundly condemned this act to all the cadets.

Prohibition against war crimes protects our servicemen, too. Retaliation is a real threat.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:30 am
Quote:
Notable as well, at least to my perception, is that the condemnatory leap to judgement in this matter appears to be concentrated within, if not exclusive to, a demographic which shares the characteristics of lack of combat experience and predisposition toward negative assessment of US conduct in general.

I offer that it is my impression that in this as in so many other things, those who talk the loudest have no idea of what they are talking about.



timber, do you ever consider what veterans of war on this site have said about various actions in Iraq? it appears you do not value them or their comments.

they are generally quieter than you are - your comment about those who talk the loudest speaks volumes.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:31 am
You nail it Dys. Impression all too frequently trumps reality, and folks in general tend to take firm positions well before thorough investigation has disclosed all relevant information. Those who at present condem this specific act are on no firmer ground than those who at present condone it. And regardless what may come of the official investigation, there will be those who reject the official findings.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:36 am
Well, the cadre says... it looks bad, and despite their being "army" nobody would rather this hadn't happened. Anybody who thinks it doesn't look bad is wistfully wishing for a return to grace.

What's really sad is it happened on the Marine's Birthday... what should have been a moment of triumph.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:44 am
I speak the more loudly for speaking from deep conviction, eh Beth, a conviction dismissed and disparaged by a plurality, if not in fact the majority of those participating on this website. I note too that some here seem to take vigorous exception to my practice in such regard. To them, I say "Pardon, your hyprocricy is showing". That my viewpoint may be contrary to what may be most popular is of no bearing on the propriety of the expression of that viewpoint, beyond that by its dissent it is a vital and critical component of the discussion.
0 Replies
 
willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:46 am
Idaho wrote:
Okay, so now let's look at what happens if this marine is found guilty of war crimes.

A young marine and his cover man enter a room with two wounded insurgents. One lies on the floor in a puddle of blood, another against the wall. A reporter and hsi camera survey the wreckage inside, and in the background can be heardthe voice of a Marine, "He's moving, he's moving!" Then, the marine hesitates, conflicted - does he ensure his companions are safe, or walk up and risk death for them all?

The pop of a rifle is heard, and the view from the camera changes as the camera falls to the floor in the dead hands of the journalist. "He's armed! Fire! Fire!" A scatter of rifle fire is heard as the terrorist is shot and killed, but too late for the journalist. "Man down! Get the paramedics" The same young men who were endanged by that journalist, fight to save his life, but it's too late.

News reporters across the nation report on how lax the soldiers were, how they should have know beens smarter, fought better and the journalist wouldn't have died. Now the brave journalist is a hero and the marine is castigated.

It's a Catch-22.


okay..lets say the marine walks into the mosque sees one insurgent lying in blood another is wounded asking for help...thinking on his feet he gets his commander and he comes and assesses the situation...the wounded insurgent is surrounded..a bomb sniffing dog is brought in..no explosives are found...the insurgent lives..the marine isn't charged with a war crime...and can go on to kill more insurgent in a gun battle...better yet he celebrates his birthday with his buddies...

we can all make up scenarios... Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:50 am
I agree it "looks bad" Piffka, but what looks even worse is that so many are so quick to leap to the conclusion that it was bad.
0 Replies
 
MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:51 am
oh, oh, and I have one...

young marine and his cover man enter a room with two wounded insurgents. One lies on the floor in a puddle of blood, another against the wall. A reporter and hsi camera survey the wreckage inside, and in the background can be heardthe voice of a Marine, "He's moving, he's moving!" Then, the marine hesitates, conflicted - does he ensure his companions are safe, or walk up and risk death for them all?

The pop of a rifle is heard, and the view from the camera changes as the camera falls to the floor in the dead hands of the journalist.

All of the sudden, thousands of terrorist jump from the roof, killing all marines...later, 15 planes crash into skyscrapers in all major american cities - it turns out that "injured" man in mosque was actually Osama Bin Laden himself!
0 Replies
 
 

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