3
   

The Religious Right and Contemporary American Politics

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 3 Dec, 2004 10:00 am
Thomas wrote:
I find it interesting that Mr. Lapham describes in 7000 words a movement he clearly perceives as a bunch of fundamentalist fanatics, without ever providing arguments why the conservatives are wrong on the issues, and the "basic American consensus" of 1960 was right on the issues. Or, perhaps more approporiate for someone who despises absolutes, why the liberals of 1960 were closer to being correct about the issues than the conservatives of 2000.

What is this telling us?

Oh, and PS:

Referring to georgeob1, blatham wrote:
I'm acutely aware of how little contemporary political analysis you bother to read.

He appears to have read the article that was posted here. Is it his fault that, like me, he found no political analysis in there?


thomas

First of all, would you please forward for the rest of us what your definition of 'political analysis' might be.

Secondly, you could go back and re-read Krugman's talk at the London School of Economics (where he addressed some of the same history and it's consequences) and clarify whether that talk involves 'political analysis' and how it might be different from Lapham's piece.

As to how this movement might be 'wrong', I doubt very much that you and I can make much headway. You are, if I may be so bold, a numbers guy. Ideologies don't seem to register for you as real things, thus neither the consequences of them.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 3 Dec, 2004 10:25 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Blatham,

Do you really mean to suggest that one whose perceptions are not shaped by a steady diet of TV and daily newspapers, and occasionally augmented by the odd piece of contemporary political analysis, is incapable of accurate critical thought and judgement? Do you really mean to say this?
Incapable of critical thought and judgement? Of course not. The problem lies with the word 'accurate'. How could one presume accuracy regarding judgements when one does not keep abreast of changes and new information? What could Voltaire tell us about the origins of hominids in Africa? What could Eisenhower tell us about modern monetary policies? You continue to assume the modern Republican party as seen in this White House is not significantly changed from the Republican party of Eisenhower, and that is just factually wrong. Even Thomas speaks of his hope that the grownups will regain control, but I don't know how many more years, and tragic mis-steps have to be behind us, before he acknowledges that they have been purposively removed and marginalized.

I have made a few, mostly idle, attempts to find something of interest or value on the tube, even on the myriad cable channels now available - virtually nothing, though the process can be narcotic. The best, when it is found, usually involves 5 minutes of material spun up to fill 30.

I'm with you here for the most part, but one particularly important gain from watching a steady diet of TV news is, if you do it, a dawning awareness that TV news media too has changed in very important and negative ways.Yes, it was, to match yours.
Surely in reading the piece it occurred to you how easily one could construct a similar fantasy about a well-funded, institutionally supported, liberal conspiracy, systematically and subtly influencing American thought and politics. Replace Scaife & Olin with Soros and the like; the Hoover & Heritage Institutes with any of the many liberal equivalents, and there you are. Common sense tells us that both are fantasies. Anyway here's a specific for you - The Bohemian Club then had 1,800 members, not 600, and partisan politics is rarely discussed at the Grove - bad form.
But no, you couldn't george, and that's the factual part of this picture.

Now, look. I quite love you and Thomas both. Thomas leads in the lovefest because he at least acknowledges the constant deceits of this administration as regards its economic statements, and the dangers that are more and more likely to accrue if the present policies are continued.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 3 Dec, 2004 11:22 am
blatham wrote:
First of all, would you please forward for the rest of us what your definition of 'political analysis' might be.

A text pertaining to politics, whose conclusions are characterized by refutable conjectures and reproducible evidence. The text in question does pertain to politics, but it mostly asserts its conclusions, and its evidence, where relevant to the conclusions, rarely rises above the level of gossip. Where I see relevant evidence and conclusions in the same paragraph, the logical chain linking them is inconclusive, as for example in the following paragraph.

Quote:
An opinion poll taken in 1964 showed 62 percent of the respondents trusting the government to do the right thing; by 1994 the number had dwindled to 19 percent. The measure can be taken as a tribute to the success of the Republican propaganda mill.

This inference -- arguably the soundest I found in the whole article -- does not begin to consider alternative explanations, such as the obvious one that the respondents had simply learned from experience that the government expansion of from 30s to the 60s had not kept the promises with which it had been justified. Not to dwell on the substance of the point, but this does go to show just how gaping the holes in Mr. Lapham's logic are.

Blatham wrote:
Secondly, you could go back and re-read Krugman's talk at the London School of Economics (where he addressed some of the same history and it's consequences) and clarify whether that talk involves 'political analysis' and how it might be different from Lapham's piece.

Do you mean this article? Yes, it does contain political analysis. Unlike Lapham, Krugman starts with relevant evidence, which I am in a position to fact check myself, and he connects them to his conclusions with logically sound arguments. Unlike Lapham, Krugman does consider alternative explanations for his evidence and usually gives a good reason why he rejected them. The consequence is that Krugman could persuade me, and has indeed persuaded me, that something is very fishy at the top of the Republican party. Lapham, by contrast, is doomed to keep preaching to the converted. (Sorry about my religious terminology there Wink )

blatham wrote:
As to how this movement might be 'wrong', I doubt very much that you and I can make much headway. You are, if I may be so bold, a numbers guy. Ideologies don't seem to register for you as real things, thus neither the consequences of them.

I don't follow you here. Liberals and conservatives both predict that their way of doing things will produce more desirable outcomes than the other side's way of doing things. We may disagree about what consequences are desirable, and this disagreement may indeed involve unresolvable ideological differences. But whether the consequences are what their proponents expected them to be can be tested with empirical evidence, and thus accessible even to a numbers guy like me. For example, when Mr. Lapham treats the quagmire in Iraq as evidence against the conservative ideology that produced it, he should be asking why the last war started by a liberal president looks so remarkably similar to it. He doesn't -- and I am suspecting that the reason he doesn't is that making the comparison would refute implicit assumptions he is making, and which he is unwilling to reconsider.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 3 Dec, 2004 11:32 am
Damn ! Second place.

I've encountered Thomas' economic argument as well. Viscerally, I believe strongly that he is either wrong on the fundamentals or (perhaps more likely) wrong to pin it on the current administration. If there is a grave, underlying problem, I believe it relates more to our trade deficit than contemporary tax policy or government spending. That problem goes back 40 years and touches the fundamentals of our trade and consumption tax policies. He will likely introduce some arcane economics equation that connects the two. (My problem there is that I find the mathematics of the economics texts I have read so far, quite unsatisfying - they are very loose with their definitions and hidden assumptions). So to hell with both of you.

I have never met anyone who, after life has finally introduced him to the bear, hasn't any element of the spiritual somewhere in his inner life. I am skeptical on this point.

You are better informed than I on matters of contemporary political analysis. However I regard this as but one of several good ways to collect the insights, regarding the behavior of humans and their tribes, leaders, governments and nations, need to correctly evaluate and interpret contemporary events. Inscribed above the portal of the National archives building on Constitution Ave. in Washington is the phrase "What is Past is Prologue". It is true. (BTW I don't regard Thomas Jefferson as the most adult or mature of our founding fathers. There were too many contradictions in his words and actions, particularly in his later years. Washington was by far his superior.)

I do agree with Thomas' interpretation of the article in question. It was just an accumulation of anecdote and innuendo, devoid of dispassionate analysis or balanced rational interpretation. As usual ha got to the heart of it with fewer words than I. However, it figures: he's German. I'm Irish.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 3 Dec, 2004 12:13 pm
Blatham wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Surely in reading the piece it occurred to you how easily one could construct a similar fantasy about a well-funded, institutionally supported, liberal conspiracy, systematically and subtly influencing American thought and politics.[...]

But no, you couldn't george, and that's the factual part of this picture.

George Soros? Michael Moore? "Independence Day"? Moveon.org? The sociological community at the major universities? Green Peace? The EPA? The post-1937 Supreme Court? The teacher's unions and their grip on the ever-more-centralized school boards? I agree with you if your objections are directed against George's characterizing their influence as "subtle". But if you deny that liberals have have their meme-peddlers just like conservatives do, and that the only reason they're not quite as obnoxious is because they are on the defensive, this has nothing to do with "the factual part of the picture". This is just the plain old-fashioned illusion that "my shît don't stink". I do appreciate being part of your lovefest though. Smile

georgeob1 wrote:
I have never met anyone who, after life has finally introduced him to the bear, hasn't any element of the spiritual somewhere in his inner life. I am skeptical on this point.

"The bear"? That's figure of speech I haven't learned yet. Please explain.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 3 Dec, 2004 12:39 pm
"Seeing the bear" = encountering something that shakes you to the core.

In my first squadron I had two very close friends; Will Turner, and Tom Curry. We worked out, flew, and raised hell together, during a wonderful four-plane deployment to (of all places- Kindley Air Force base in Bermuda. Paradise for 22 year old pilots on the hunt. One day while snorkelling in St George's bay I looled up and saw one of our aircraft, just after take-off, roll inverted and fly into a low hill - it was Will. Five days later back at home base in Florida and just after the Memorial Service, Tom and I were working out in the base gym - he was doing bench presses when he dropped the bar and began what appeared to me to be a seizure of some kind. In fact his aorta had burst from an undedected aneurysm, and he died in my arms. I had seen the bear. There were still other encounters to come, but this was when I first understood that life is finite and unpredictable.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Fri 3 Dec, 2004 01:04 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
"Seeing the bear" = encountering something that shakes you to the core.

In my first squadron I had two very close friends;.....this was when I first understood that life is finite and unpredictable.


sorry you had to go through that george. that's too messed up. we have so few real friends in life, it's hard to see them go.

life is indeed finite and unpredictable. and much shorter than we think as youngsters.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 3 Dec, 2004 01:09 pm
George -- Thanks for your definition and your story! I think I get the picture.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Sun 5 Dec, 2004 08:41 am
I have responses........I do, but they'll have to wait until I've finished my work (if I can only avoid the temptation of a lovely, sunny Sunday in Manhattan......which may be too much to ask.)
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Sun 19 Dec, 2004 06:14 pm
Kicking this one back up to the top, because we're not through talking about it.

Encountering more than the usual "Jesus is the reason for the season" claptrap that bubbles up this time of year, I am motivated to a response.

Our nation is, by design, a secular nation. Our founders took great pains to ensure that the underpinning of our government was not religious. Nevertheless, many of our fellow citizens are Christians, and have a secular-democracy-granted right to believe and practice their faith (and I wouldn't have it any other way).

Now that it's popular for conservatives to talk about our Christian nation, though, a little something has crossed my mind. Usually that kind of talk gives us secular types visions of a theocracy, not to mention constant low-level irritation at having to listen to political types who apparently have never read the Constitution. But Christianity, like all faiths, has a lot to say about how one should live one's life. So I wondered: is there an upside for all of us, Christian or not, in living in a country where the majority of people are Christians?

Consider that the New Testament tells us a lot about the life of Jesus and how he said we should live. For example, Jesus identified strongly with his society's poorest and most downtrodden and sickly people, and he instructed his followers to do the same. So in a highly Christian-influenced nation, shouldn't we expect that people would expend considerable resources helping the poor and support social policy that helps us ensure that people do not starve, or freeze in the street, have access to basic necessities like food and shelter and medical care, and generally create a society where people look out for each other and help those who have the least?

Well, then again, maybe not.

If I'm going to have to live in a nation full of Christians, I would appreciate it if more of them paid a little more attention in Sunday School and actually followed their faith.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Sun 19 Dec, 2004 07:05 pm
really know how to liven up a party, eh pdiddie. good post. and real food for thought.

i look forward to the discussion, but not tonite. company is coming to help us celebrate the winter solstice.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Sun 19 Dec, 2004 10:30 pm
Heavy sigh...............
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:46 am
here's something that nobody seems to have thought of and hasn't been mentioned;

the religious left...
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Mon 20 Dec, 2004 01:55 am
I don't think the voting habits of Martians have been discussed either.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Mon 20 Dec, 2004 03:24 am
Einherjar wrote:
I don't think the voting habits of Martians have been discussed either.


wha ?? are you trying to say that you don't believe there's a religious left in america ? or anywhere else ?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:03 am
PDiddie wrote:
Our nation is, by design, a secular nation. Our founders took great pains to ensure that the underpinning of our government was not religious. Nevertheless, many of our fellow citizens are Christians, and have a secular-democracy-granted right to believe and practice their faith (and I wouldn't have it any other way).


Some errors here. Virtually all of the founders and signatories of both the Declaration of Independence and later the Constitution were practicing Christians. They took great pains to ensure that the new republic they were creating would countenance no establishment of a particular religion, and that the states that made it up would not do so either. This was done in the context of the original colonies which, with only two exceptions, did at various times have established forms of Christianity built in to both their colonial charters and, as well their various laws and legislatures, The exceptions were Maryland and Rhode Island (which was established by some Protestants seeking to escape the intolerance of others in Massachusetts.)

However the founders most assuredly did not intend that the government they created would be anti-religion or would forbid any expression relating to the existence of God in its activities. On the contrary, they made specific reference to God the creator in the Declaration of Independence, and to the freedom of people to practice their religious views in the Constitution. Moreover the new government from its beginnings, in the proceedings of the Executive, the Legislature, and the Courts employed numerous references to God in its pronouncements, prayers and exhortations in its ceremonies and rituals; and even chaplains in its military and naval organizations.

The so-called,:"wall of separation between church and state" is not an article of our law at all. It but a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson in his private correspondence.

This original practice is not what many secularists are seeking now - they seek a government that will not countenance any expression of religion, the presence of any religious symbols, or merely the reference to God in any of its direct activities or any activity which it either sponsors or funds.
This kind of de facto atheism is specifically contrary to both what is expressed in the founding documents of our contry and to the known actions and intent of our founders.

Quote:
If I'm going to have to live in a nation full of Christians, I would appreciate it if more of them paid a little more attention in Sunday School and actually followed their faith.


I think most Christians would agree with this statement too. Essentially the same thought could, with as much accuracy, be expressed about any set of moral or ethical values and those who profess to embrace them.
0 Replies
 
Einherjar
 
  1  
Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:42 am
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Einherjar wrote:
I don't think the voting habits of Martians have been discussed either.


wha ?? are you trying to say that you don't believe there's a religious left in america ? or anywhere else ?


I'm under the impression that the american "religious left" are not politically motivated by religion, and are thus indistinguishable from the regular left. Being indistinguishable from the regular left there is no reason to consider them a separate voting block. Am I mistaken?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 20 Dec, 2004 05:58 am
I think you have a point there . . .
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Mon 20 Dec, 2004 06:48 am
Einherjar wrote:
DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Einherjar wrote:
I don't think the voting habits of Martians have been discussed either.


wha ?? are you trying to say that you don't believe there's a religious left in america ? or anywhere else ?


I'm under the impression that the american "religious left" are not politically motivated by religion, and are thus indistinguishable from the regular left. Being indistinguishable from the regular left there is no reason to consider them a separate voting block. Am I mistaken?


yeah. good point. maybe they are too busy walking the walk to talk the talk ??

is that what you mean ?
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Mon 20 Dec, 2004 08:42 am
hey, a Setanta sighting! wow.
0 Replies
 
 

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