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The Religious Right and Contemporary American Politics

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 07:42 am
Thomas wrote:
It's nice to have an ally about the overhyping though.

Hey, I was always there already Razz
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 09:47 am
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 09:55 am
PDiddie wrote:
I'm well, Bern. I dropped by to post a remembrance of timberlandko and am hanging out for a few minutes before I go.

I had 867,710 new posts since my last visit, and since the pages here still load as if I'm on a dialup connection, I don't think I'll be seeing what everyone has been up to. A quick update from here:

Sue's father passed away one week ago today (not unexpected; he'd been suffering from bladder cancer for seven years). She's holding up as well as can be expected. Her mother went to the hospital the very next day -- as Sue was preparing to leave for Miami and her father's funeral -- with congestive heart failure and pneumonia and remains there. Her dementia is end-stage, so her passing wouldn't be a terrible shock, either. Sue's sister, undergoing her own chemotherapy for lymphoma (in remission, just a booster) collapsed in the ICU, was transported a few steps over to ER and diagnosed with dehydration and a fever. She went home the same day.

Been kind of a rough week, and it looks like it's improving already, thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

How's your health these days?

(Sorry for hijacking the thread. Reply in PM if you prefer.)


P

Health fine. Physical health, I ought to specify. Very sorry to hear of the entropic stuff, please pass on my and Lola's regards to your wife.

Many of us would love to see you more often.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 11:36 am
nimh

As further to thomas' (excellent) point re the modern Supreme Court, which has arrived as a consequence of RR support and demands (equalling influence), there is this...
Quote:
http://www.slate.com/id/2162161?nav=tap3

Lithwick (Canadian as it happens) is Slate's legal writer. She's always well worth reading.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 12:01 pm
Glad to see that you do believe in free speech. Does that apply to Rush Limbach as well?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 12:45 pm
blatham wrote:
Lithwick (Canadian as it happens) is Slate's legal writer. She's always well worth reading.

This may well be so, but I encourage you to read the oral argument she links to. This is not a clear-cut case of free speech v. Orwellian oppressors.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 02:25 pm
Thomas wrote:
blatham wrote:
Lithwick (Canadian as it happens) is Slate's legal writer. She's always well worth reading.

This may well be so, but I encourage you to read the oral argument she links to. This is not a clear-cut case of free speech v. Orwellian oppressors.


No, it isn't. An educational setting presents some unique problems in respect to speech and other rights. Most acutely an educational setting prior to university. We probably ought not to allow freedom of choice in curricula, for example. And probably it would be imprudent to establish school hours through a democratic student vote.

On the other hand, where we don't make the distinction between education and indoctrination, we are at risk of setting up our schools to forward and enforce univestigated and arbitrary cultural assumptions/values, goals often (if not always) quite at odds with the goals related to encouraging students to question authority.

The SC got this case because of these dilemmas. But Lithwick's take on the relative dangers of either choice is mine as well. If we are to err, we ought to err in the direction of individual liberty.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 02:29 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Glad to see that you do believe in free speech. Does that apply to Rush Limbach as well?


george
It's really time for you to drop this strawman. You will find no mention by me anywhere of some desire or plan designed to shut any individual or viewpoint out of the community conversation.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 02:38 pm
Blatham,

You are being too sensitive. Even the signature line below your comment reveals your contradictions.

It is a fault, but hardly an unusual one. It is conceivable that I have a few myself.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 02:45 pm
To the degree that you do not admit or discern important distinctions, to that degree you not only miss what is being said, but also it will follow that any response from you will have as much value as a vagina made of broken glass.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 03:27 pm
A fairly sharp metaphor. However, it seems to me that the only distinctions I have missed are of the type -- black is white when you want it to be so.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Mar, 2007 11:35 pm
blatham wrote:
The SC got this case because of these dilemmas. But Lithwick's take on the relative dangers of either choice is mine as well. If we are to err, we ought to err in the direction of individual liberty.

I see you haven't read the transcript . Your loss; it's fun! If you should change your mind, as I hope you will, you can find it here.

What do you think of the following line-drawing? Under the First Amendment, students have a right to free speech at school events. But schools can bar from their events demonstrations that promote law-breaking. I think this would be a Salomonic solution that solves the problem in a straightforward, content-neutral way. It denies schools a limitless power to define their educational mission and suppress student speech contradicting it. At the same time, the compromise would still protect against excesses. For example, students could, at school events, unfold banners saying: "Legalize Marijuana", but not "Smoke pot, it's fun!".

When students express themselves in slang or otherwise obscurely, someone may need to interpret which category their messages belong into. That's what the teacher did in this case with "Bong hits 4 Jesus". And I think she was the right person to do this. The federal courts don't exist to micromanage school discipline. So in cases of ambiguity, they should defer to the teachers' interpretation as long as it's reasonable. (As I understand it, that was Kenneth Starr's whole point about "the frontline message interpreter".)

Together, this package makes for a clear legal rule that students and teachers can easily understand and follow. I find it very attractive. Conspicuously however, Ms. Litwick doesn't mention the possibility of this compromise with even one word. Why? I can't help but speculate it's because Scalia suggested the rule, and Starr seemed happy with it, contradicting Litwick's storyline.

In the original, oral arguments are wittier, more differentiated, much more entertaining, and not too much longer than the editorials about them. Read more oral arguments in the original! Or in the spirit of the case: Oral arguments hit 4 Jesus!
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 05:49 am
georgeob1 wrote:
A fairly sharp metaphor. However, it seems to me that the only distinctions I have missed are of the type -- black is white when you want it to be so.


Well, it is tough to apprehend that which has been passed by unapprehended.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Mar, 2007 05:50 am
thomas

No, sorry, my time is limited presently but I ought to remember to take your advices on what's worthwhile to read. I'll read it and reply in a bit.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 06:05 am
This is a great example of a procedure with which I'm more than familiar. It's been around for a long time. As a child, I was encouraged to witness to my friends. This procedure began with a "gift" of a little "wordless book." It came complete with a little string attached, ending with a small safety pin so the new convert could pin it to their clothing. The first page, black, represented the subject's sinful life. The second was red.........Christ died for your sins. Third, white, your soul after asking Jesus into your heart and the last, Gold for the famous streets of........ I think there was a green one too, but I forget what it meant.

I know Walter, you'll point out the bias of my source. But don't take Chris Hedges' word for it..........and don't take mine. But don't miss the opportunity to visit one of these churches while you're visitin down South. Let me know in which city you'd like to see for yourself and I'll provide the church name.

The Secrets of the Christian Right's Recruiting Tactics
By Chris Hedges, Truthdig
Posted on April 24, 2007, Printed on April 24, 2007

http://www.alternet.org/story/50934/


Quote:

I attended a five-day seminar in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., where I was taught the techniques of conversion, often by D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries. The callousness of these tecWe are told to pepper our testimonies with words like love, peace, faithfulness, forgiveness, hope, purpose and obedience and remember to talk about how we have found, in our own conversion, "courage in the face of death."

Kennedy warns us not to carry a large Bible, but to keep a small one hidden in a pocket, saying "don't show your gun until you're ready to shoot it."

The conversion, at first blush, is simply euphoric. It is about new friends, loving and accepting friends, about the final conquering of human anxieties, fears and addictions, about attainment through God of wealth, power, success and happiness. For those who have known personal and economic despair it feels like a new life, a new beginning.

The new church friends call the converts, invite them to dinner and have time to listen to their troubles and answer their questions. Kennedy tells us that we must keep in touch in the days after conversion. He encourages us to keep detailed files on those we proselytize. We must be sure new converts are never left standing alone at church. We must care when no one else seems to care. The new converts are assigned a "discipler" or prayer partner, a new friend, who is wiser than they are in the ways of the Lord and able to instruct them in their new life.hniques -- targeting the vulnerable, building false friendships with the lonely or troubled, promising to relieve people of the most fundamental dreads of human existence, from the fear of mortality to the numbing pain of grief -- gave to the process an awful cruelty and dishonesty. . .


Their bodies are stiff and upright and their eyes are shining with feigned joy. It's scary.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 06:10 am
Lola wrote:
This is a great example of a procedure with which I'm more than familiar. It's been around for a long time. As a child, I was encouraged to witness to my friends. This procedure began with a "gift" of a little "wordless book." It came complete with a little string attached, ending with a small safety pin so the new convert could pin it to their clothing. The first page, black, represented the subject's sinful life. The second was red.........Christ died for your sins. Third, white, your soul after asking Jesus into your heart and the last, Gold for the famous streets of........ I think there was a green one too, but I forget what it meant.

I know Thomas, you'll point out the bias of my source. But don't take Chris Hedges' word for it..........and don't take mine. But don't miss the opportunity to visit one of these churches while you're visitin down South. Let me know in which city you'd like to see for yourself and I'll provide the church name.

The Secrets of the Christian Right's Recruiting Tactics
By Chris Hedges, Truthdig
Posted on April 24, 2007, Printed on April 24, 2007

http://www.alternet.org/story/50934/


Quote:

I attended a five-day seminar in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., where I was taught the techniques of conversion, often by D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries. The callousness of these tecWe are told to pepper our testimonies with words like love, peace, faithfulness, forgiveness, hope, purpose and obedience and remember to talk about how we have found, in our own conversion, "courage in the face of death."

Kennedy warns us not to carry a large Bible, but to keep a small one hidden in a pocket, saying "don't show your gun until you're ready to shoot it."

The conversion, at first blush, is simply euphoric. It is about new friends, loving and accepting friends, about the final conquering of human anxieties, fears and addictions, about attainment through God of wealth, power, success and happiness. For those who have known personal and economic despair it feels like a new life, a new beginning.

The new church friends call the converts, invite them to dinner and have time to listen to their troubles and answer their questions. Kennedy tells us that we must keep in touch in the days after conversion. He encourages us to keep detailed files on those we proselytize. We must be sure new converts are never left standing alone at church. We must care when no one else seems to care. The new converts are assigned a "discipler" or prayer partner, a new friend, who is wiser than they are in the ways of the Lord and able to instruct them in their new life.hniques -- targeting the vulnerable, building false friendships with the lonely or troubled, promising to relieve people of the most fundamental dreads of human existence, from the fear of mortality to the numbing pain of grief -- gave to the process an awful cruelty and dishonesty. . .


Their bodies are stiff and upright and their eyes are shining with feigned joy. It's scary.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 12:39 pm
Quote:
Mary Tillman, Pat's mother, also testified, saying she was "appalled" by comments from Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich, an officer in Tillman's unit, suggesting that the family was not at peace with the death because they are atheists who believe their son is now "worm dirt."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-ex-tillman24apr25,0,3324263.story?coll=la-home-headlines
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Apr, 2007 10:07 am
Lola wrote:
This is a great example of a procedure with which I'm more than familiar. It's been around for a long time. As a child, I was encouraged to witness to my friends. This procedure began with a "gift" of a little "wordless book." It came complete with a little string attached, ending with a small safety pin so the new convert could pin it to their clothing. The first page, black, represented the subject's sinful life. The second was red.........Christ died for your sins. Third, white, your soul after asking Jesus into your heart and the last, Gold for the famous streets of........ I think there was a green one too, but I forget what it meant.

I know Walter, you'll point out the bias of my source. But don't take Chris Hedges' word for it..........and don't take mine. But don't miss the opportunity to visit one of these churches while you're visitin down South. Let me know in which city you'd like to see for yourself and I'll provide the church name.

The Secrets of the Christian Right's Recruiting Tactics
By Chris Hedges, Truthdig
Posted on April 24, 2007, Printed on April 24, 2007

http://www.alternet.org/story/50934/


Quote:

I attended a five-day seminar in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., where I was taught the techniques of conversion, often by D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries. The callousness of these tecWe are told to pepper our testimonies with words like love, peace, faithfulness, forgiveness, hope, purpose and obedience and remember to talk about how we have found, in our own conversion, "courage in the face of death."

Kennedy warns us not to carry a large Bible, but to keep a small one hidden in a pocket, saying "don't show your gun until you're ready to shoot it."

The conversion, at first blush, is simply euphoric. It is about new friends, loving and accepting friends, about the final conquering of human anxieties, fears and addictions, about attainment through God of wealth, power, success and happiness. For those who have known personal and economic despair it feels like a new life, a new beginning.

The new church friends call the converts, invite them to dinner and have time to listen to their troubles and answer their questions. Kennedy tells us that we must keep in touch in the days after conversion. He encourages us to keep detailed files on those we proselytize. We must be sure new converts are never left standing alone at church. We must care when no one else seems to care. The new converts are assigned a "discipler" or prayer partner, a new friend, who is wiser than they are in the ways of the Lord and able to instruct them in their new life.hniques -- targeting the vulnerable, building false friendships with the lonely or troubled, promising to relieve people of the most fundamental dreads of human existence, from the fear of mortality to the numbing pain of grief -- gave to the process an awful cruelty and dishonesty. . .


Their bodies are stiff and upright and their eyes are shining with feigned joy. It's scary.


OK, What I meant to say was "I know, Thomas" Not Walter. Sorry guys. I don't know how I got you confused................or ARE you confused? If you are, I'm not.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 Apr, 2007 07:20 am
Giuliani comes out against civil unions Michael Roston
Published: Thursday April 26, 2007

The political website of the New York Sun will report tomorrow that in a major reversal from an earlier position, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani now opposes civil unions between same sex partners.

An advance copy of an article sent to RAW STORY shows that the New York Republican has backed off his earlier support for civil unions, prompted by the passage of a law in New Hampshire's State Senate.

"In this specific case the law states same sex civil unions are the equivalent of marriage and recognizes same sex unions from outside states. This goes too far and Mayor Giuliani does not support it," the Giuliani campaign said in a written response sent to the Sun's Ryan Sager.

The Sun notes that Giuliani had said in 2004 on Fox News, "I'm in favor of...civil unions."
link
0 Replies
 
 

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