Reply
Mon 15 Nov, 2004 08:36 pm
Turn on the TV, Sean Hannity and Ollie North are attempting damage control. This does not look good.
The U.S. military is investigating whether a Marine shot dead an unarmed, wounded insurgent during the battle for Falluja in an incident captured on videotape by a pool reporter.
The man was shot in the head at close range Saturday by a Marine who found him among a group of wounded men. The wounded men were found in a mosque that Marines said had been the source of small-arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire the previous day.
The Marine in the videotape has been removed from his unit and taken to the headquarters of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, and the Navy's Criminal Investigative Service said it plans to question one of the other wounded Iraqis as part of the probe, according to the pool reporter embedded with the unit.
The Marine seen shooting the man was part of a squad from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, which had been part of intense house-to-house fighting in southern Falluja.
We do not know what the Iraqi who was shot did just before his being dispatched to the 7 virgins, now do we?
Let's get all the facts before calling it a war crime.
this is a messy messy war.
Larry434 wrote:We do not know what the Iraqi who was shot did just before his being dispatched to the 7 virgins, now do we?
Let's get all the facts before calling it a war crime.
This is wholly irrelevant. A war crime in this situation would have absolutely nothing to do with what the Iraqi had done.
It might make you feel differently about it, but from a legal standpoint this is a war crime only if the prisoner was, indeed, unarmed and posed no threat.
From what is described it's about as clear cut a war crime as it gets.
CNN wrote:A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead."
The Marine raised his rifle and fired into the apparently wounded man's head, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now."
I saw it. It is a war crime.
This was in this evening's ABC Evening news. A Courts Martial should be following shortly. There's no excuse for this.
From what I've seen ... theres plenty of footage on the web, has been for a day or so ... it appears to be an undisciplined act and clearly a prosecutable offense, and I expect thorough investigation will ensue, with additional evidence developed.
From the video one could not say, for instance, that the Marine's angle of view to the decedent did not allow the Marine to observe intent or action on the part of the decedent to employ a weapon or otherwise engage in overtly hostile action. Can't say it did, can't say it didn't.
There will be investigation, there may ... likely will, from what I saw ... be prosecution. If it comes to Courts Martial, the Marine may expect severe sanction. The Marine Corps frowns on breakdowns of dicipline ... really upsets 'em, as a matter of fact. They get real testy about it ... image and tradition and all, you know. If the kid was in the wrong then, he's in deep, deep excreta now.
This, unfortunately, is the type of thing that happens it every war. That is why I was so incredulous that everyone scoffed at Kerry's stories of Vietnam, and of some of the atrocities commited there.
gustavratzenhofer wrote:This, unfortunately, is the type of thing that happens it every war. That is why I was so incredulous that everyone scoffed at Kerry's stories of Vietnam, and of some of the atrocities commited there.
This will be treated as an oddity not a normal thing that happens in wars.
I do not wish to , nor do I believe that this ass hole Marine is representative of all Marines.....but for God' sake I wish all the bush apologists would just cop to this atrocity but they won't....we'll hear from a select few (we already know who they are) who have made it clear that the lives of Iraqis have no value......and that's disgusting as the crime itself....
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:I do not wish to , nor do I believe that this **** Marine is representative of all Marines.....but for God' sake I wish all the bush apologists would just cop to this atrocity but they won't....we'll hear from a select few (we already know who they are) who have made it clear that the lives of Iraqis have no value......and that's disgusting as the crime itself....
Next excuse will be that the marine was doing the iraqi a favor by sending him to his "heavenly reward with his 7 virgins."
littlek wrote:this is a messy messy war.
Ain't never been a clean one as I know of ... just ain't the nature of the beast.
Oh, revel ... thats 72 Virgins ... though some scholarly translations render the operative word not as "Virgin" but variously as "White Raisin" or "Raisin Without Blemish" ... some even have the word not "Raisin" but "Grape", and others render the phrase as "Perfect" or "Unblemished","Fruits". Could just be a cultural thing. The "72" has to do with "Twice six times six" ... an arcane numerological significance of a certain particular propitiousness in that culture. And virgins prolly have broader general appeal than good produce might.
I only heard this late this evening (driving home) when ABC news radio reported it. Included in their comments was the fact that it's not uncommon for the opposition over there to hide bombs while faking death.
I'm NOT saying this was the case here and I haven't seen any footage or heard any other reports. I do think that none of us knows all the details of exactly what the conditions were at the time of this shooting, the soldier's frame of mind, the exhaustion factor, just the sheer terror of being in combat.
I agree with Timber - there will be a full investigation and I'll hold off making a judgment until its conclusion.
just my experience, the determination of military justice is more defined by the amount of brass worn by the defendant than the nature of the crime, peeps above jr grade officers have basically 2 options. (1) passed over on the next 2 promotions lists and (2) strong suggestion that retirement is a good idea. but then that's just my observation and I never cottoned much to officers anyway.
Kid was a line grunt, Dys ... only brass he had was his ammo casin's. He's prolly toast. Presented with an opportunity to make a discipline-reinforcing example of an evidently undisciplined lower enlisted rank, the military generally leaps at the opportunity. To The Men, it says, "See? You can't do this". To The Public, it says "See? We don't let anyone get away with this sort of stuff". To themselves, they say "Lets get past this stuff as expeditiously and economically as is all around practicable without damage to our own careers."
That was kinda my point Timber, I assume the kid was a grunt and can expect the full extent, on the other hand where he wearing more brass be would get a bye and retirement. I'm sure Timber you are aware of the "no-goes" in Vietnam and why they were not brought up on charges being because there would be testimony against the brass of an unflattering nature. But as I said above, was just my experience.
Pretty much my experience too, Dys. I know exactly where you're comin' from. Been there, done that. Saw The Tiger, saw The Elephant. Didn't even get a neat t-shirt, either.
Stumble It!
Tweet This
Bookmark on Delicious
Share on Facebook
Share on MySpace