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The political genius of George W. Bush

 
 
El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 08:52 pm
Quote:
If attaining and retaining power is the only criteria for establishing credentials as "Brilliant Politician"... W joins the ranks of Mussolini, Der Fuhrer, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Franco, Pinochet, Duvalier, etc., etc.

"Brilliant Politicians", all.


Yes they were amazing politicians. Crummy ass people and downright evil but absolutely brilliant politicians.
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Magus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2004 11:13 pm
Social toxins, I say.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 02:27 pm
kickycan wrote:

In another sense though, what you are saying is like saying that a team with great players has a brilliant coach by default.


Well, in this game I guess the analogy taht would be more apt is general manager, in which the team with great players is also a testament to his abilities.

But I'm not saying it is by default, Bush's political skills go far beyond surroundig himself with skilled people.

Quote:
Do you believe that Bush was so outstanding at doing those things you listed above?


Yes.

Quote:
I believe he had a family full of people willing to come together to put the current team together for hiim.


This is not incompatible with the notion taht he has political skill, this merely is a platform to give it a day in the sunlight.

Quote:
Are you saying that a person being born into a situation where he is surrounded by brilliance makes that person brilliant by default?


Of course not. You are saying its opposite and trying to get my point to fall in line with yours by asking me the reverse of your own point in incredulous fanshion.

Quote:
If he had to network and align himself with the right people without the silver spoon that was in his mouth when he was born, do you believe he would be brilliant enough to make this happen?


Yes. But he might not have had the opportunity. Having the opportunities doens't detract from what one is able to do with them.


blatham wrote:
If we compare the last three Republican presidents, one stands quite apart - Bush Sr. Both Reagan and Bush Jr have managed to stir large portions of the citizenry through a personal connection with them. That's not nothing.

Both Reagan and Bush Jr have managed to institute fairly large and serious changes in how many Americans perceive government and how they think government ought to be arranged. That's not nothing.


Indeed. Both these men were very successful in getting policies some of us oppose in place. That they are so successful in changing teh country in a way we find unacceptable is a large reason people here dislike them and find any non-negative words used about them to be inappropriate.

Quote:
Still, applying a term such as 'genius' to the fellow seems to degrade that term to something nearly meaningless.


Only in the same way that "basketball genius" does. The term was "political genius" and these subsets can't be held tothe same standards as pure mental genius.

Bush is no genius, nor was Clinton, a man who was clearly brighter.

Both demonstrate high levels of political skill on the more competitive political stage.
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dare2think
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 03:52 pm
El-Diablo wrote:
Quote:
If attaining and retaining power is the only criteria for establishing credentials as "Brilliant Politician"... W joins the ranks of Mussolini, Der Fuhrer, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Franco, Pinochet, Duvalier, etc., etc.

"Brilliant Politicians", all.


Yes they were amazing politicians. Crummy ass people and downright evil but absolutely brilliant politicians.

A M E N!!!! and they fit idiot bush to a tee.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 04:39 pm
Craven said: "And though he would never be described as eloquent he does communicate well (as defined by speaking to his constituents in a way that moves them or is clear to them). And does so despite what seems to many as a learning disability combined with an inability to speak."

This is the bit that puzzles this furriner, at least.'

I don't think a person who speaks as badly - and sounds as - well, frankly, stupid - as Bush does could get to a position of such political prominence either in Oz or Great Britain (I will stick to countries I know - and not comment re Europe, Canada etc)

One reason for this is that our political leaders cannot get away with making mainly prepared speeches - they have to be able to answer hostile and difficult questions in question time, and lead debates and respond to others' points of debate fast and without sounding like idiots.

Do other furriners agree with me? And - I wonder, if I am right, is this good or bad? Does something about America let people like Bush have so much power, and it is it good that it does?

I, of course, from my li'l bailiwick, think it isn't good - I think it very important to be able to string thoughts and words together - and I find having someone who sounds as unnervingly stupid as Bush does, when he has to speak for himself, having so much power, well, unnerving - but, perhaps it is enough to be able to gather clever people around you, and communicate some sort of warmth to people???? Perhaps (leaving aside policies - presumably a similar sort of Democrat could have done the same, could have whatever Bush's political genius consists of) it is good for such folk to get to be leaders?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 04:43 pm
From my point of view other countries seem to place more value on oratory, but then again they usually have a less "anti-intellectual" culture.
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 05:35 pm
What dlowan says applies to Norway, Sweden and Denmark as well.

I doubt a Bush could rise to prominence in the democratic party, most core democrats place as much value on oratory as we do I belive, and I think their voter turnout would suffer under a speach impaired candidate. This does not effect conservative candidates as much, because the people who value oratory vote overwhalmingly democratic.

Disclaimer: I don't know the contents of the above paragraph, this is my impression.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 05:45 pm
Thing is, I am not sure it is just oratory.

But, good or bad as per my question, Einherjar?
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2004 05:53 pm
I prefer politicians who are able to argue clearly and eloquently. I also prefer for there to be plenty of debates and hostile questioning. This tends to expose falacies and misunderstandings.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 07:35 am
deb. The analysis that has been done re: politicians in the states is that (((USUALLY))) the populist style of politician will win over the more elitist. Thats a testimony to post Revolutionary disdain for anything that even hint of intellectualism. Look at how Clinton, who wears the title "genius" so comfortably but almost apologizes for having read so much. Clinton can outdo populist with the best. Bush is an example of the proper alignment of stars, planets, and issues.

What do you expect from the country that invented NASCAR,deep fried oreos, and "the Cleveland Steamer"
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 08:05 am
Well, it also has a wonderful literature, artistic wonders, some fantastic universities, and a vibrant intellectual culture - I remain puzzled. Kennedy was not afraid to sound bright....
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 08:09 am
awww, your just bein kind. We share a lot with Oz when it comes to suspicion of elitism, except , IMHO , we carry it to a national paranoia
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 08:11 am
Hmmm - you have no problem with "tall poppies" as we do....but I do not THINK we want our leaders to sound brainless.....many have been exceptionally erudite and academically brilliant...
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 10:41 am
blatham
Quote:
Still, applying a term such as 'genius' to the fellow seems to degrade that term to something nearly meaningless.


craven
Quote:
Only in the same way that "basketball genius" does. The term was "political genius" and these subsets can't be held tothe same standards as pure mental genius.


Understood. But I think, if our goal is to undestand why this Bush administration has been successful in gaining a second term, and in what we've agreed above are unusual accomplishments, the term 'genius' in this particular instance obscures more than reveals.

First, I think your analogy is inappropriate. Those athletes we might label as geniuses (Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretsky, Magic Johnston, Hank Aaron, etc) demonstrate unusual expertise or talent across a broad range of the aspects of their sport - Woods can put, drive, play long and short irons, has excellent strategic skills, etc. We would be unlikely to apply the term to a ball-player who handles grounders exceptionally well, but who can't hit, can't catch fly balls, and can't run bases.

As another example...does it help our understanding to label Madonna a 'musical genius'? More appropriately, we might claim she demonstrates 'genius' at self-promotion, or at niche marketing, or some such.

My argument is that Madonna (and her PR team) is a far better analogy with Bush. And that if the range of skills/expertise is so narrow, then 'genius' is an inproper term that obscures the actuality.

An important corner to this is how communities mythologize leaders/heroes. And more to the point, how those surrounding a leader (or those who might somehow benefit from association with him/her) have an interest in forwarding a mythology which bestows unusual qualities upon that leader. Rove clearly has this one well understood. I've been pointing out for four years how every cabinet member or government spokesperson, in every speech and press interaction, gives attribution to Bush for every decision and almost every thought behind every decision (until something goes wrong, as we know). This presents a desired appearance of Bush being the intellectual fount behind the entire administration, behind foreign and domestic policy, and behind his electoral strategies, etc. It's false, of course, but the policy isn't designed to be accurate.

I have no qualms, none, with applying this term genius to Rove, or to Reed, or to Norquist, or to the Kristol father and son.

A little side note...on the day prior to the election, Dys, Dianne, Lola and I were watching a debate between a Dem Senator and Ralph Reed. It became apparent quite quickly that Reed had been instrumental in coaching Bush for the debates - his pacing, speech accents and most evidently of all, his hand movements were identical to Bush. And I do mean identical. It was quite amazing.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 10:47 am
deb said
Quote:
I don't think a person who speaks as badly - and sounds as - well, frankly, stupid - as Bush does could get to a position of such political prominence either in Oz or Great Britain (I will stick to countries I know - and not comment re Europe, Canada etc)

One reason for this is that our political leaders cannot get away with making mainly prepared speeches - they have to be able to answer hostile and difficult questions in question time, and lead debates and respond to others' points of debate fast and without sounding like idiots.

Do other furriners agree with me?


I think it a certainty, given that such parliamentary exchanges are televised and watched. One way in which this presidency has been exceptional is the degree to which Bush has been protected from free and open exchanges with news media or citizens at townhall-style meetings. Presentation is ALWAYS controlled tightly.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 10:59 am
dlowan wrote:
Hmmm - you have no problem with "tall poppies" as we do....but I do not THINK we want our leaders to sound brainless.....many have been exceptionally erudite and academically brilliant...


Craven earlier mentioned 'anti-intellectualism'. And farmerperson points here too with his observations on populism.

Once again, blatham urges folks to get online and order up Richard Hofstadter's "Anti-Intellectualism in American Life". There is simply no way one can understand the unique history (and present) of American political life without a proper appreciation of this element. It is easily as important, I think far moreso, than even the civil war.

And I do think, in answer to your other question deb, that muddy speech is a dependable reflection of the mind beneath. And the converse is true as well.
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Magus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 11:28 am
That recurrent tide of "anti-intellectualism" has been a "civil war" of sorts since before the War for Independence (from England).
Consider the Witch-burnings, the religious liberty movements, Prohibition, Trade Unionism, etc.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2004 03:07 pm
blatham wrote:
deb said
Quote:
I don't think a person who speaks as badly - and sounds as - well, frankly, stupid - as Bush does could get to a position of such political prominence either in Oz or Great Britain (I will stick to countries I know - and not comment re Europe, Canada etc)

One reason for this is that our political leaders cannot get away with making mainly prepared speeches - they have to be able to answer hostile and difficult questions in question time, and lead debates and respond to others' points of debate fast and without sounding like idiots.

Do other furriners agree with me?


I think it a certainty, given that such parliamentary exchanges are televised and watched. One way in which this presidency has been exceptional is the degree to which Bush has been protected from free and open exchanges with news media or citizens at townhall-style meetings. Presentation is ALWAYS controlled tightly.


Yes - but that is a continuation of a trend since kennedy, no?

Mind you - I think it has hit obscene levels in this presidency
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 08:31 am
deb

Since Kennedy? I'm not sure what you have in mind here....the influence of TV and the rise of Madison Avenue marketing techniques in American politics?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2004 02:42 pm
Well, yes - and I have read that the Kennedy administration was the first to really begin to use the art of spin - and had tighter media control. Though - perhap sit is more that they used the media in a different way???

Mind you - HE wasn't afraid to stand up at White House press conference after press conference and answer real, hard, questions. Nor was he afraid to sound like an educated, erudite, man. (Even if a lot of the erudite quotes came from Jackie and Salinger!)
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