Wisconsin School OKs Creationism Teaching

Just out of curiosity, where do you see Creationism being included in High School curricula, and what will the students be expected to learn from it?

I expect the next crusade will be introduce alternative ideas to the heliocentric solar system....

They'll learn what billions of people believe. I think it's useful to understand what billions of your fellow humans believe.
Just out of curiosity, why is it such a goddam tragedy if that information is given?

It is. The organizations who fund the crusade have stated their goals clearly. They hide behind Intelligent Design and push it along as though they only want equal representation in science, but their motivations and ultimate goals are all about giving equal time to Jesus, not equal time to science.

Not one person on the thread has objected to Creationism being allowed to students, just not in science classes.

I don't think that "billions" of people believe in creationism. Maybe you should be more specific.

Are you talking about teaching religion in general, or about teaching specific religions? Or do you really think that billions of people believe in Creationism (the version being pushed by www.icr.org and such organizations)?



Sure. It's useful to understand physics and chemistry and history and sociology, and there are classes for that. What exactly are you suggesting should be taught?



What information? Can you be specific?

There's a huge difference between "Belief" and "Understanding", snood. That's the difference between religionists and scientists. Religionists choose to believe what is convenient to their own particular superstition, conceding no other possibility, scientists strive to gain greater and greater understanding of the way things are. Science is all about doubt and wonder and discovery and correction. Religion is none of those things. Religion is comforting, science is challenging. Therein, perhaps, lies the core of the dispute - the choice between comfort and challenge.

If there is tragedy in the issue, it is not to be found in the "giving" of the "information", but rather in the manner some press to have that "information" given. That a closed-ended Abrahamic superstition - or any other - be given equal status with man's constant and necessary growth of understanding is antitheis to the concept of learning. Creationism/Intelligent Design is a philosophy ... a belief set, a guess, a superstition, an opinion. Science based on reasoned conclusions drawn from the best available evidence, always subject to revision, change, and further discovery, is a vital, critical-to-mankind's-future academic pursuit.

I don't think you Don Quixotes will take yes for an answer.

I don't have an agenda to anything-ize anybody. I'm simply saying that I don't consider it as much as a cause for alarm as some of my fellows seem to, if there should be some eventuality that should find Creationism being taught.

It's funny how you all keep pretending to disagree with snood.

I have yet to see any of you object to teaching in schools the verifiable fact that numerous religions exist, and that they teach and have historically though certain dogma. As long as equal time is given to an asembly of different religions, and no favoritism is shown, this is not controversial. This could be considered a subject in its own right, or it could be integrated in history class.

Also I have not seen snood demand that religion be fit innto science class, which is what the fuss is about.

It seems to me we are all in agreement.

He suggested on this thread or another that evolution and creationism meet head to head with the teacher apparently guiding the students to form their own opinions. Which can't be accomplished in seperate classrooms.

Put religious dogma to the test of the scientific method? Sure, in religion and philosophy class.

edgar - you seem to be trying to attribute to me the creation or perpetuation of some conflict regarding the teaching of creationism and evolution. I have been attempting from the first post I offered to this discussion to do nothing but give reasons why teaching both subjects (and for me, the closer together they teach them, the better) shouldn't be a problem.

One more time - I don't care if they package it as sociology, history, or if they incorporate it into P.E. as a memorization game they play while they do jumping-jacks, I just don't see why it has to be a problem teaching both creationism and evolution in the same schools.

By the way, the idea that we should keep them separate to avoid too heated a classroom environment is laughable to me. Middle and High Schoolers in these United States sorely NEED to be challenged to think critically. Since this is a dynamic discussion happening in the real world and in the news daily anyway, why try to innoculate them from it?

snood
You talk of "teaching" creationism as part of the curriculum in public schools. It seems to me that since creationism is a religious concept the "teaching" of it in public schools violates the concept of separation of church and state. It is certainly a more overt action than having the ten commandments in the courthouse.

At some point it becomes indoctrination instead of education in the public school, plus puts emphasis on one religion above another.

Whadya guys think - you're going to make a strong enough case to enough people that creationism will be removed from curricula?

On some level, what I'm hearing you say is "life ain't fair". If you at all factor in the absolute intractability of this nation's (expecially with the current party in power) acceptance of Christian religious dogma.

All due respect (and I do respect the depth of intellect and well-considered opinion), but how do you think it productive to keep repeating "I don't think they should have in schools the concept that we're created by God", when it is painfully obvious that you are facing down a rhino and you're armed with spitballs?

I think you are being overly optimistic, snood. In the end, people in position to make the final decision on this are likely to side with science. Creationists may make a few inroads, but by and large it will be a losing fight. My estimation of what will happen.

Oh, I don't think I'm being optimistic (and that's a little bit of a presumptuous adjective, since I'm not really politically or emotionally invested in how it turns out - I'll just think it's a shame if either side bans the other), I think that those who think they really can run God out of the schools are the ones who overestimate their hand.

And, as a minor footnote - I have always heard the right-wingers rail about those damned liberals trying to "run God out" of our schools, but I had to come to A2K to actually meet 'em. I actually thought they were caricatures and stereotypes. Not that you're damned liberals, but I'd not until now actually encountered folks who just don't even want God mentioned by our teachers, unless they refer to him (her , it) as an archaic myth.

Live and learn, I guess.

Snood, here's a thought. The Internet connects up billions of people - there are three blocs (for want of a better word) of about 3 or 4 billions that consist of people who either:
-believe in Allah and follow the Prophet
-are followers of a tri-partite Godhead of Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva
-are nominal atheists, but practise a weird mix of Marxism and Confucism

And you truely believe that a:
-there are NO religious types on the net, and
-a bunch of libruls in the same nation as you with the same basic culture and values are going to force their ideas on you? This from a nation where trying to get a group to agree on pizza tippings will either end up in a lawsuit or a hand-gun shooting?

Cut the BS mate!

I don't know what you think I said. I didn't say or imply anything about thinking someone was going to "force their ideas" on me. I simply said I'd always heard there were people who didn't want God in the classroom at all, but had never really met any.

Sort of like, I always hear about racists, but hardly ever meet one (who will be honest about it).

Cut the BS yourself, "mate".

Nobody said God can't be mentioned in school in an appropriate setting, snood. Only that religion can't be taught in there, since there is separation of church and state. A comparative religion class or the like could legally be allowed and creationism fully discussed. So, God can be mentioned there in that scenario with no conflict.