Anti-Europeanism in America ?

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This is not really a political question, I think.

But since we have been talking about "Anti-Americanism" in this category already and since the article below is published in the politics section of "Die Zeit", it might well fit here.
Especially, too, since the author takes a more political view on this subject:

Anti-Europeanism in America
By Timothy Garton Ash
This year, especially if the United States goes to war against Iraq, you will doubtless see more articles in the American press on "Anti-Americanism in Europe." But what about anti-Europeanism in the United States? Consider this:

To the list of polities destined to slip down the Eurinal of history, we must add the European Union and France's Fifth Republic. The only question is how messy their disintegration will be.
(Mark Steyn, Jewish World Review, May 1, 2002)
And:

Even the phrase "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" is used [to describe the French] as often as the French say "screw the Jews." Oops, sorry, that's a different popular French expression.
(Jonah Goldberg, National Review Online, July 16, 2002)
Or, from a rather different corner:

"You want to know what I really think of the Europeans?" asked the senior State Department Official. "I think they have been wrong on just about every major international issue for the past 20 years."
(Quoted by Martin Walker, UPI, November 13, 2002)

http://zeus.zeit.de/bilder/2003/06/kultur/amerikaIllu_250.gif

Further reading here:
The New York Review of Books
February 13, 2003
Anti-Europeanism in America

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I read this article recently, Walter. It should be required reading for everyone in America! Especially those who are running the country right now, including Donald ("old Europe") Rumsfeld.

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Thanks for your response, D'artagnan!
(Well, since this thread doesn' even get more answers... .)

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Interesting Walter. I remember 15 years ago, while in high school, that there was a lot of anti-french commentary. And, people seemd a bit nervous about Germany still - until the wall came down. I haven't seen any individual attacks on european nations (except for certain members of the government). I do live in an isolated area - Cambridge. We tend to have a liberal population here and that's certainly the case amongst my family and friends. I don't watch TV, but I know there has been Euro-bashing there.... And, given the political climate right now, I imagine I'll be hearing it soon even around this little pool of peace and intellect.

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Well, if you all could just be goofy and nonthreatening, like Canada, the jokes would be a little friendlier. ;-)

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I was born in a far off country.
My language is anything other than English.
And here is my English

This Pro Anti Dis -establishmentarism is barbarism pure.

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i lol'd. a few times.

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Anti-European? Could that be a touch of Freudian paranoia, meaning that Europe is worth being anti against? What about "no interest" in Europe? Must Europe continue thinking in a Eurocentric paradigm, where the Far East is "far" from Europe, and the Near East is nearer to Europe (it's now politically correct in academia to refer to Asia as just the Pacific Rim; no allusion to how close or far it is from Europe).

Anyway, Europe as a land mass will continue to exist, but it may have a changing culture with immigration. I would guess that most people in the rest of the world just will, and probably already, think of Europe as a very efficient factory for this or that consumer goods. Based on that definition, Japan is now part of Europe.

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A great many Americans are anti Europe, and most of them don't know enough about Europe to be qualified to have an opinion worth listening to. Far fewer who have at least traveled to Europe feel that way I think.

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hawkeye10 wrote:

A great many Americans are anti Europe, and most of them don't know enough about Europe to be qualified to have an opinion worth listening to. Far fewer who have at least traveled to Europe feel that way I think.

I would wonder if your last sentence is putting the cart before the horse. Most people who travel to Europe, by taking the time and incurring the cost of a trip, already have decided that they "like" Europe, or at least are interested in it. There are plenty of places to spend one's vacation dollar, without being thought of as anti-Europe. Some people just like the U.S., or non-European destinations. That's a problem?

And, for anyone that is anti-Europe, is that wrong? Why can't people be allowed to have standards, and not want to travel to far off places that just may not interest them -- the culture, the language, the people, the history? Let's not forget, anyone that might be anti-Europe is not acting on that dislike, just snubbing Europe, perhaps.

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Foofie wrote:

And, for anyone that is anti-Europe, is that wrong? Why can't people be allowed to have standards, and not want to travel to far off places that just may not interest them -- the culture, the language, the people, the history? Let's not forget, anyone that might be anti-Europe is not acting on that dislike, just snubbing Europe, perhaps.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it if the people who have an opinion have some clue what it is they are talking about.

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Wow. It took five years, but the article's finally getting some interest Cool

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hawkeye10 wrote:

Foofie wrote:

And, for anyone that is anti-Europe, is that wrong? Why can't people be allowed to have standards, and not want to travel to far off places that just may not interest them -- the culture, the language, the people, the history? Let's not forget, anyone that might be anti-Europe is not acting on that dislike, just snubbing Europe, perhaps.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with it if the people who have an opinion have some clue what it is they are talking about.

Can you say what your point is simply, rather than make an oblique allusion? Just spit it out. Did you, or anyone, yet explain what might be bad about Americans being anti-Europe? Nothing, I believe.

In my opinion, Europe has an interesting history of smallish countries (as compared to the U.S.) waging wars against each other. I don't include Russia in Europe, since as recently as the 20th century, Russia was Eurasia. But, other than history, what does Europe have that Americans should be interested in?

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Foofie wrote:

I don't include Russia in Europe, since as recently as the 20th century, Russia was Eurasia.

Of course we'll yield to your expert's arguments.

Foofie wrote:

But, other than history, what does Europe have that Americans should be interested in?

Well, I created this thread five years ago.

That wasn't questioned if I remember correctly.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Further reading here:
The New York Review of Books
February 13, 2003
Anti-Europeanism in America

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
I don't include Russia in Europe, since as recently as the 20th century, Russia was Eurasia.

Of course we'll yield to your expert's arguments.

Foofie wrote:
But, other than history, what does Europe have that Americans should be interested in?

Well, I created this thread five years ago.

That wasn't questioned if I remember correctly.

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Further reading here:
The New York Review of Books
February 13, 2003
Anti-Europeanism in America

I'm not such a loch en kopf that I accept reading assignments. Someone please tell me why Americans should be interested in Europe???

I'll give you my opinion why Europe is annoying to me (not all countries): the people smoke too much; drive their cars too fast; have moved away from Christianity; speak too many different languages; have great pride in very old buildings; don't play baseball; speak English with a British accent; think they are so sophisticated; like classical music; are not Americans .

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Foofie wrote:

I'm not such a loch en kopf ...

I'll give you my opinion why Europe is annoying to me (not all countries): ... speak too many different languages;

Well, at least your try to one, namely Yiddish, isn't that bad at all.
loch in/im kopf = lit.=a hole in (the) head: "the last thing I need"
[Equal: lach en keppe]

But okay, thanks.

(That was an quite interesting reply to the original report.)

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Well, yeah, I mean, I agree with a lot of anti-European sentiment. I've said this somewhere else, but international politics is largely about getting other folk to live more like you do and the Europeans aren't shy about it. They're little, highly developed, eccentric yet weakly constituted countries that still think they know what time it is for everyone. Argue with socialized medicine and you get smoke and mirrors - in Denmark this, in France that - like in any given one of those countries it still doesn't suck, and that ends up being because we take the gas.

Each of those countries is like a theme park, and since the people that live there are largely ancestral and don't know any other way to live the goofy rules don't get on anyone's nerves. But over here we got one big melting pot, largely composed of the stock of disenfranchised Europeans - we can't just do right like they do - and what if we did? What if we turned this into a cute little hobbit colony with liederhosen, re-usable grocery bags, glass counters over produce, and cars taxed by the cubic-liter-displacement (as if a OHV 6cyl. won't get better mileage if driven properly)? If we'd have done it in 1920 they'd all be speaking German and we'd have had to fight Mexico off.

I find it monstrous the way the international community gropes for conformity (I know, when we do it we either pay 'em or bomb 'em. It might sound worse but, I'm not kidding when I say this, it puts an element of reality in the situation). They want to iron out the wrinkles whereas the US thrives on diversity inside and outside the borders, when it's cute and cuddly and most especially when it ain't. They're bigots of the highest order and I eschew their luxury-good-offerings as a matter of social conscience.

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hanno wrote:

Well, yeah, I mean, I agree with a lot of anti-European sentiment. I've said this somewhere else, but international politics is largely about getting other folk to live more like you do and the Europeans aren't shy about it. They're little, highly developed, eccentric yet weakly constituted countries that still think they know what time it is for everyone. Argue with socialized medicine and you get smoke and mirrors - in Denmark this, in France that - like in any given one of those countries it still doesn't suck, and that ends up being because we take the gas.
.

If the europeans are right that cooperative effort organized by government enterprise is critical the the long term health and well being of the society, then we Americans are screwed. Because we sure don't think so, and we turn up our nose in disgust. The problem for us is that history seems to be on their side.

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Let's not forget there are countries in Europe that have monarchies, and a percentage of the citizenry just go ga-ga over them. I believe many Americans have no interest in monarchies; perhaps an interest in the British, but that may be because some families originated from the UK way back when.

And, in my opinion, the French culture seems to make many people put on some pseudo-aristocratic air?

Europe has history. Their future might just be a comfortable cacoon. I think they learned from two world wars though, no one country there will ever be a butterfly.

But, give some Europeans "A" for effort when they wear dungarees.

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hawkeye10 wrote:

hanno wrote:
Well, yeah, I mean, I agree with a lot of anti-European sentiment. I've said this somewhere else, but international politics is largely about getting other folk to live more like you do and the Europeans aren't shy about it. They're little, highly developed, eccentric yet weakly constituted countries that still think they know what time it is for everyone. Argue with socialized medicine and you get smoke and mirrors - in Denmark this, in France that - like in any given one of those countries it still doesn't suck, and that ends up being because we take the gas.
.

If the europeans are right that cooperative effort organized by government enterprise is critical the the long term health and well being of the society, then we Americans are screwed. Because we sure don't think so, and we turn up our nose in disgust. The problem for us is that history seems to be on their side.

I dig some of your insights but I'm not sure I'm reading you on this one, not sure what history you mean. Off the cuff I'd say the great experiment is working out alright and better for it without the health and well being their societies enjoy - I mean, national identity is one thing but who needs all that Switzer-Guards at the Vatican, 600-year-old pastry-shop with royal-warrant-to-the-duchess crap when they can't manage a car over 2.0 Liters, operate their own finances in the manner of an independent enterprise or as a group can't risk pissing off Iran...

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Anti-Europeanism in America ?

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