Civil Disobedience

I don't think things are quite as extreme as Nazi Germany was, in spite of the ominous assertion of your roommate's grandfather, cy. But they could be if everyone just bends over and takes things as given, kwim? Let's become politically active and fight for what we believe in. Civil disobedience if we can't get heard within the system in place, yes, but try to turn the wheel before stepping aside to reinvent the wheel. I will fight for my rights as a woman, as a mother and as an American. I will do my best to channel my frustration and anger into keeping Bush and his minions on the best track for AMERICA and NOT big business or the Saudi's. Working WITHIN the system in place is the most likely way to be heard and taken seriously. Working outside the system requires the test of time and the fire of ridicule. Our time test will probably only be 4 more years. You don't think Cheney will run on 08, do you? Or Jeb as Bush3? So, you, and I have 4 years to get involved in the decision making process and make our voices heard in a way we've never done before. Instead of grumbling about what's happening around us, it's time to stand up and say "NO! You will NOT take away my rights!"

Is the whe worst part the ban on gay marriages, or the resolution that passed in Florida requiring Dr's to break confidentiality and inform parents of their teen daughters desires to have an abortion.? My mind pictures girls maiming themselves by a "do it yourself" coathanger type abortion. What greater good is accomplished by prohibiting either of these? How will this help the general population's daily lives? How does this make the USA a better place to live, work, and raise a family?

I would suggest picking an issue and work to get it heard and amended in a manner that benefits the whole country and not just the ego of 51%. That is more important now than taking up the call for civil disobedience. the situations's not that dire- yet. First things first. And in 2008, we can work to unravel all the other knots I expect to be twisted around our freedoms. I figure it won't take more than, oh, a generation to right the wrongs inflicted on us by those who believe they have their ears to God's lips.

Jesus himself fit himself into every liberal agenda.

He opposed the rich
Stopped capital punishment
And condemned people who "served money"

Very few American Christians really read the Bible. Reading does not mean just to mouth the words, it means trying to understand and put it into your life.

I know the Bible very well as I once was training for the ministry in a protestent church. I became disillusioned with religion, but still deeply respect the words of Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible is very different than the Jesus spoken about by American Christians.

The Jesus of the Bible certainly wouldn't hate liberals or socialists.

How can you justify going to war if you are an advocate of doing what Jesus said to do? How can you justify cutting taxes if you are advocating what Jesus said to do? I read the bible, too. You want me to get the pertinent scripture references out, cannistershot? Because I can, if you can't find the chapter and verses for yourself.

Quit jacking my thread, jerks.

To begin with, Cyclops is a he, not a she.

If you want to crow about your victory, Republicans, feel free to do so in the threads that are provided for said purpose. Democrats who want to cry about defeat are welcome to do the same.

Bill, I never claimed to be superior to anyone or 'not needing' to respond to certain people in the fashion in which you do. Therefore, my claim for you to 'get over yourself' and your ridicule of my phrase



Are two completely different issues. But I'm sure you knew that.

Now, back to the topic of the thread:

What are the steps that need to be taken to set up such an enterprise? I'm going to list off some issues I've been thinking about, and anyone who has ideas, I'd sure love to hear them.

1. One of the traditional problems with protest movements has been a lack of a unified voice; the peaceful protestors get mixed up with the violent ones, the crazies get lumped in with the logical discourse.... We need numbers and therefore cannot be extremely selective, but there has to be some process of control, so as to avoid the extreme nutjobs from leeching legitimacy from the actual complaints. Any thoughts?

2. We need methods of communication that are at least partially immune to government suppression. I've got a lot of technological ideas on this one, but I'd really like to see a low-tech solution to local messaging between members without resorting to computer use (too easy to cut the lines on us). Sort of a 21st-century smoke signal?

3. There has been evidence in the last four years that public outcry and pressure has influenced the decisions the Bush admin has made; the complete 180 on the 9-11 commission is a good example of this. That being the case, there needs to be a way to organize people so that their collective problems with the admin's policies are too loud to be ignored.

I've been reading a lot about the formation of the civil rights movement and how they organized very efficiently in many different locations. Perhaps we can do the same? The internet becomes a great asset in this case, both in terms of organization, and in terms of publicity for the events. If anyone knows/would like to contribute knowledge, that would help.

4. We need to have clear positions. One of the factors which hurt Kerry in this last election (besides the rigged voting machines) was his inability to break complicated positions down into clear soundbites. The president is great at this, mostly because he does it the easy way; just turn every complicated issue into a simple moral one, and boom! Tons of idiotic Xian sheep on your side.

Like it or not, we are going to have to figure this tactic out. Many of us rail at the thought of reducing complicated issues of foreign and domestic policies into sound-bytes, but it has become apparent that this will be neccessary to motivate the vast amounts of people out there who are either too busy or too stupid to actually research for themselves.

We could really use the services of a linguist or debater on this one, if anyone can offer. I know some of you Democrats out there are cunning linguists and master debaters.

5. Some sort of web presence will be neccessary for the enterprise to succeed. I have tons of experience using the web and precious little in running the web; definately assistance will be required on this one.

From a security point of view, any ideas? I have lately thought of using Freenet - freenet.sourceforge.net - but I'd like to get the opinions of others.




Ya know what I'd really love? To find a group who is already way on top of this. I'm going to a few meetings this week (Democracy for America, Move On, etc) where I intend to discuss and see what people think.

I am NOT content to wait four years for change! We need to be working on this NOW. Take a lesson from the Republicans, get off of your ass, and get organized! We could make significant Senate gains in two years, pressure the government into adopting more moderate policies, and maybe - just maybe - energize enough citizens to take a stand against those who would style themselves our moral and economic betters.

We're going to change this nation one way or the other.

Cycloptichorn

P.S. Though I'm sure there will be many more people taking this thread in the wrong direction, saying, well, whatever kind of personal attacks they like about me, I'll quote you from my first post:

Well, here's a thought
How about instead of running screaming to the courts every time you don't get your way, you actually try to convince those of us who disagree with you to help change the laws. Hint: Calling us ignorant, mislead, bigotted, redneck, nazi, moronic cultists may not be the best start.

As soon as you people stop acting like ignorant, mislead, bigotted, redneck, nazi, moronic cultists, we'll stop pointing it out to you.

Fair enough? Bush wants us to meet in the middle, he said so, remember?

Cycloptichorn

Like most Liberals, Cy and his clique believe that everyone who doesn't believe exactly as they do IS an ignorant, mislead, bigotted, redneck, nazi, moronic cultist.

That is why they lost all the states in the heartland and the south, they refuse to accept that other points of view may have some validity or are even worth discussing, they simply villify the individuals that disagree with them.

Re: Well, here's a thought


Idaho, you are overblowing your lead.

Bush won by 3% just 3% of the nation was the difference.

Some Bush supporters are ignorant, mislead, bigoted, redneck, nazi moronic cultists. I don't want or need to talk to them.

We only need to convice 3% to change over-- that's it. This is still a very divided nation and by appealing to a very small proportion of America will swing things completely.

Saying that Bush represents America and that we are out of touch is a bit of a hyperbole.

The last I'll say on this issue, as it is somewhat off-topic, is that we lost the south more due to the fact that Bush thumps a bible every third time he opens his mouth than anything else.

Cycloptichorn

Absolutely. And we can. And Bush is going to help.

Cycloptichorn

I understand perfectly
In my experience, most far left liberals treat politics as their religion - if you don't believe you must convert or be squashed. Sound familiar? You cannot have a reasoned conversation with someone who has that mindset. Most conservatives, on the other hand, tend to use politics as a means to an end rather than worshipping at the alter of political belief. So, rather than trying to convert or reach out, perhaps we should look into containment strategies? (wink) :wink:

I guess my question will be ignored.

Not by me, ed.



I certainly never advocated taking up arms against the gov't. We take up voices and the streets.

I DID say that it might be a good idea to procure a rifle, which is a useful tool to protect oneself from tyranny from the Gov't. But that's no different than what Americans have thought since the beginning of our country.

Cycloptichorn

That's what the conservatives have said all along, about owning a weapon. I was reacting to some of Asherman's words. It seems that whenever left leaning folk discuss civil disobedience the right wingers are quick to threaten with jail and or violence to "control" the mad lawbreakers.

I don't think civil disobedience is going to help matters or solve any problems. There is a potential fragility to the political process in this nation at the moment that will only be aggravated by the kind of conflict created by civil disobedience.

Bah! The American political process is more robust than you give it credit for.

I don't for a second think a little civil disobedience is going to make people stop voting. But it will make them listen.

Cycloptichorn

Couldn't resist.

Bush tried something similar in Iraq. Put an American Army in the country and the will all become clones of suburban Republicans.

It hasn't worked so far.

Double lol.

I remember that one!

Cycloptichorn

Sure. But we only need to change 5% or so to have a dramatic effect It is an accomplishable goal, especially if you see a lot of right wing legislation in the next few years. DOUBLE especially if they screw with RoeVWade.

Cycloptichorn