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Excessive Force?

 
 
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 12:16 pm
@layman,
I'm not even sure what your point here is anymore. You asked if the cop was using excessive force on the little girl in the video. Yes he is. Would it be excessive force of a big bulry man? I don't know, it would depend. Then you're hitting kids and drunks and now bombing people...

What is your point?
camlok
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 12:36 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
Then you're hitting kids and drunks and now bombing people...

What is your point?


These are the products, the ravings of two plus centuries of a war mongering people.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 12:56 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

I'm not even sure what your point here is anymore. You asked if the cop was using excessive force on the little girl in the video. Yes he is.
What is your point?


YES HE IS! OK, that's your conclusion, but what's it based on? It was excessive force for Israel to shell any terrorist hideouts in Gaza, because they could have taken some lesser (or no) action, according to many.

When a cop has become aware that the perp he is trying to arrest is dead-set on resisting, he is trained to immediately "take control" of the escalating situation. Often the best way to do this is to put the resistor in a subservient position "on the ground," rather than try to fight him toe-to-toe while he keeps his feet, his ability to strike, run, or whatever.

You take a look at a 15 second video, and then add-in the supposition that she could also be spitting in his face and trying to break his toes, and that STILL would not justify the implementation of standard police procedures.

It is obvious where your sympathies lie. It is AGAINST cops. You have basically called this cop, just doing his job, a wife-beater. You have suggested that following police procedure places all cops in "mortal danger" because citizens will now be justified in mortally attacking them.

You do not for one second reflect on your transparent biases. You think you are being completely objective. There is simply no argument about it. The criminal girl is right, and the cop is wrong. End of story. Nothing to discuss.

I look at it a little differently. I don't take the view that the criminal is always right. I don't take wild offense at the fact that a criminal was thrown to the ground (and not even injured). She could have just peaceably submitted to a lawful arrest, after all. She should blame herself, not the cop.
camlok
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 01:01 pm
@layman,
You're on a raving roll, layman.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  0  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 01:35 pm
@layman,
I've never claimed to be on the cops side of anything. I'm very much against the militaristic turn the police have taken in the last 20 years. Doing things like slamming a tiny girl into the floor because he can't control her? That's BS and you know it. I'm surprised he also didn't taze her and have 4 more cops come in and stomp her head in.

I've told my children that calling the police is that absolute last resort. In very few occasions have I seen the police come to a situation and make things better. Have you?

You don't strike me a police apologist so I'll not call you one. I think that you have a line that cops can cross and so do I. I think my line is a lot closer to them than yours is though.

Excessive Force and Police Brutality
Quote:
Excessive force refers to situations where government officials legally entitled to use force exceed the minimum amount necessary to diffuse an incident or to protect themselves or others from harm. This can come up in different contexts, such as when handling prisoners or even during military operations. When it involves law enforcement, especially during an arrest, it's also referred to as police brutality. The constitutional right to be free from excessive force is found in the reasonable search and seizure requirement of the Fourth Amendment and the prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment in the Eighth Amendment.


"use force exceed the minimum amount necessary to diffuse an incident or to protect themselves or others from harm. "

See that? Look back at what I said and you'll see that I've not said anything counter to this.

I do believe that there is a time and a place for excessive force though. Cops do a dangerous job. They interact with criminals on a daily basis. Criminals are terrible, terrible people and when they threaten the police they should be dealt with appropriately. However, if a cop cannot control his/her temper or actions then maybe being a cop isn't the right career path for them.
camlok
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 01:41 pm
@McGentrix,
Why do you seem so rational on this issue, McGentrix, and you are a raving war monger, an ardent defender of war criminals and war crimes, terrorism, on the international scene?

It's almost like you have a streak of liberal running thru you.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 01:51 pm
Anyone remember Sgt Calley and the My Lai "massacre" back in the Nam era.

Over a period of several days, cong snipers would pick off 2-3 members of Calley's patrol, then run into that village. Each time his squad followed them in, but couldn't identify any particular individuals responsible. They interrogated all the villagers, demanding that they reveal who was killing them. Nobody "knew" anything.

About the 3rd or 4th time they entered the village, and got the same response, they smoked every inhabitant of the village. After that, they weren't getting killed every day.

Meanwhile, thousands of miles away, sitting in the comfort of their living rooms, eating popcorn, drinking beer, smoking dope, and watching the news on TV, left-wingers condemned those soldiers as "monsters."

Of course it wasn't THEIR ass that was at risk of being killed 24/7. It wasn't the guy sitting next to them that was killed just yesterday by the villagers who aided and abetted their deaths.

A lot of sanctimonious grand-standing coming from a bunch of cowardly-ass draft-dodgers from the safety of their homes.

War is hell, boys, and their aint but one rule: Just win, Baby.

If I were in charge, I would have no problem with killing 100 vietnamese if it would save the life of just one american soldier.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 01:53 pm
Quote:
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.

The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.


Teddy Roosevelt, eh?
0 Replies
 
camlok
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 02:01 pm
@layman,
Please seek professional help, layman.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 02:29 pm
@McGentrix,
You have definitely tried to over-simplify the contents of the article you cited, Gent. It says, for example:

Quote:
So, for example, in an ideal situation, an officer should use the following graduated methods to diffuse a situation:

Physical presence: Using his or her mere presence.
Verbalization: Using verbal statements, from non-threatening requests to direct orders.
Empty-Hand Control: Using physical bodily force through grabs, holds, punches or kicks.
Less Lethal Methods: Using weapons such as a baton, chemical sprays, Tasers, or police dogs.
Lethal Force: Using lethal weapons such as firearms.


Here, mere "presence" and lawful "orders" didn't to the trick, so...

Quote:
In order to be considered reasonable and compliant with the Constitution, whenever force is used (the last 3 methods), it must stop when the need for the force ceases, for instance when a suspect is successfully restrained or a situation has otherwise de-escalated. An officer is not allowed to punish criminals no longer posing a threat.


No evidence that this occurred here.

Quote:
Along with deferring to a law enforcement reasonableness standard, courts can also grant officers qualified immunity. This protects public officials from civil liability for violations of rights so long as they were reasonably performing their duties and the rights involved were not "clearly established." In excessive force cases, qualified immunity can protect police officers in more ambiguous situations where there is a "hazy border between excessive and acceptable force."


It is the not simple question with only one, indubitably correct, possible simple answer that you portray it to be, eh?
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 02:41 pm
Jackson: You shot Melanie?
De Niro: Twice.
Jackson: Couldn't you have just hit her?
De Niro: Maybe, but I dunno. At that time....

Thank God he wasn't a woman-beater, eh? He admits it's "possible" that lesser force might have worked, but, on the other hand, it would have been just as likely to result in her screaming like a banshee that she was being abused, calling attention to them from all over creation, getting them both arrested, and losing $550,000 in cash.

He made a judgment call and did what he believed was the most reasonable thing to do. His partner could clearly see that.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 02:52 pm
@layman,






We need more of these guys and fewer of these.





roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 03:14 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Anyone remember Sgt Calley and the My Lai "massacre" back in the Nam era.


He was a lieutenant.

And yes, I remember him. We were in the same home room in high school. Edison Senior High in Miami, Florida, graduating class of 1962
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 03:31 pm
@McGentrix,
Gent, I didn't watch all of your videos, but I agree with their import. If I'm not mistaken, though, in the first one, after they talked the guy into leaving, he just returned a few hours later. Sometimes indulgence gives one the impression that he now has license to repeat his offense without repercussions.

I was not, and am not, touting the actions of the cop in the clip I first posted as "ideal," by any means. I would be the last one to advocate that cops always come on "strong" and act arrogantly.

But, by the same token, I'm not quick to impute criminal use of "excessive force" to any cop who doesn't respond perfectly. It's time that criminals start being assessed with some responsibility for creating these often dangerous encounters with police in the first place.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 03:48 pm
@McGentrix,
I just now looked at the one called "Florida Cop accused of excessive force."

I don't get it. There is no sound. No context of what lead up to the cop presumably ordering her to get out of her vehicle, nothing indicating of what orders had been given, no indication of whether she had been informed that she was being placed under arrest, or anything else. For all we know, she had 500 kilos of crack cocaine in the seat next to her.

It does show that it is not a simple matter to handcuff a resisting suspect while they remain on their feet, however. They end up on the ground, as expected.

Was this "accused" cop convicted? Or is that even a question? Is it to the point now where some "accusation," made without any known basis, against a cop is tantamount to conviction of guilt.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 03:49 pm
@roger,
Yeah, Rog, Lt., thanks. What kinda guy was he when you knew him?
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 03:57 pm
@layman,
Just an impression, but he was almost something. Almost popular but not quite "in crowd". Almost smart, but not consistently honor roll. Almost an athlete, but I don't believe he was on any of the teams. It's worth mentioning that that particular was very competitive in the athletics department.

I would not have predicted his future in Viet Nam, but when I read about it, I never said it was a mistake. Mostly, it seems he just followed the lead of Captain Medina (if I'm spelling the name right). I had the impression that he was made into the fall guy.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 14 Apr, 2017 04:32 pm
I should add that I have personally had almost innumerable encounters with cops over the years, none of them "good."

My experience has been that, on average, a cop will not hesitate from violating your constitutional rights. And they will invariably try to bluff you into believing that they have "rights" which they don't have.

Many times the only reason I wasn't arrested was because I dared them to arrest me so that I could sue them for false arrest and imprisonment.

I have been roughed up, but never severely beaten--which is kinda too bad because I coulda retired years sooner if they had.

There were exceptions. Sometimes it was just an honest and fair cop who was trying to do his job, as he saw it.

But, even with all that, I'm still willing to avoid presuming guilt when it comes to allegations against cops.

0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Apr, 2017 11:57 pm
Has anyone noticed that since the mother of all bomb fiasco reporting on Trumps Russian connections has disappeared from the news. Im not even sure the senate is doing anything with it but the house quit it a long time ago. Got to give the sob credit, he knows how to play the 12 year old U S mentality.
camlok
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 17 Apr, 2017 09:43 am
@RABEL222,
Quote:
Got to give the sob credit, he knows how to play the 12 year old U S mentality.


Tell me about it, RABEL.
0 Replies
 
 

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