8
   

Wasserman Schultz

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 Apr, 2017 09:06 pm
@Lash,
I got my hoper engaged.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2017 02:10 pm
Dianne Feinstein Takes Money From Health-Care Lobby, Rejects Single-Payer Insurance
http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/dianne-feinstein-takes-money-health-care-lobby-rejects-single-payer-insurance
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 May, 2017 02:19 pm
@edgarblythe,
She and I have been known to differ..
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2017 07:59 am
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/why-cant-the-left-win/522102/?utm_source=atlfb
What follows is a roundup of critiques offered in that spirit. It is neither exhaustive nor definitive. But I hope that it can serve a starting point for an informative conversation.

The Limits of Opprobrium and Stigma

When Abraham Lincoln was 33 years old, he gave a speech inside a Presbyterian church to a temperance society. His message: The assembled ought to be nicer to drinkers and sellers of alcohol, rather than shunning them, or denouncing them as moral pestilences. Indeed, they ought to use “kindly persuasion,” even if a man’s drunkenness had caused misery to his wife, or left his children hungry and naked with want.

For people are never less likely to change, to convert to new ways of thinking or acting, than when it means joining the ranks of their denouncers.

To expect otherwise, “to have expected them not to meet denunciation with denunciation ... and anathema with anathema, was to expect a reversal of human nature,” Lincoln explained. “If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend. Therein is a drop of honey that catches his heart, which, say what he will, is the great highroad to his reason, and when once gained, you will find but little trouble in convincing his judgment of the justice of your cause.”

However, Lincoln cautioned, dictate to a man’s judgment, command his action, or mark him to be despised, “and he will retreat within himself, close all the avenues to his head and his heart. And even though your cause be naked truth itself, transformed to the heaviest lance, harder than steel, and sharper than steel can be made, and though you throw it with more than Herculean force and precision, you shall be no more be able to pierce him, than to penetrate the hard shell of a tortoise with a rye straw.”


It was and remains extremely counterproductive for the left to treat Trump supporters as a “basket of deplorables,” especially given how tiny a percentage of his followers would need to be converted away from the president to reorient political power in Washington, D.C. For directing me to a Lincoln speech I’d never read before, I thank Andrew Sullivan, who quoted it to support the argument that “you will not arrest the reactionary momentum by ignoring it or dismissing it entirely as a function of bigotry or stupidity. You’ll only defuse it by appreciating its insights and co-opting its appeal.”

Forget What Is “Normal”

A typical objection to calls to contest reactionary premises on the merits, and to persuade adherents of reaction, is that doing so somehow validates their ideas. “Among many liberals, there is an understandable impulse to raise the drawbridge, to deny certain ideas access to respectable conversation, to prevent certain concepts from being ‘normalized,’” Sullivan wrote, anticipating the objection. “But the normalization has already occurred — thanks, largely, to voters across the West — and willfully blinding ourselves to the most potent political movement of the moment will not make it go away. Our job in these circumstances is not to condescend but to engage — or forfeit the politics of the moment (and the future) to reaction.”

Noah Millman has fleshed out why the posture of preventing normalization is doomed:

Whoever says that Trump shouldn’t be “normalized” is implying that somebody — the press, perhaps? — is in a position to decide what is normal, and to inform everybody else of that fact. But that’s not how norms work, and neither the press nor anybody else is in a position either to grant or withhold recognition to the new government.

In fact, the word is a way of distracting from one of the crucial jobs at hand. Trump, for example, is on strong legal ground when he says that he is exempt from conflict of interest laws. But laws can be changed — and perhaps they should be. To achieve that requires making a case, not that what Trump is doing isn’t “normal,” but that it is a bad thing worth prohibiting by law. Saying “we mustn’t normalize this behavior” rather than “we need to stop this behavior” is really a way of saying that you don’t want to engage in politics, but would rather just signal to those who already agree with us just how appalled we are. And haven’t we learned already the dire consequences of substituting virtue signaling for politics?
Matt Yglesias has reached similar conclusions.“Normalization, in this context, is typically cast as a form of complicity with Trump in which the highest possible premium is placed on maintaining a rigid state of alert and warning people that he is not just another politician whom you may or may not agree with on the issues,” he wrote. “But several students of authoritarian populist movements abroad have a different message. To beat Trump, his opponents need to practice ordinary humdrum politics.”
revelette1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2017 03:11 pm
@edgarblythe,
So, would the river flow our way as well? I am talking about the progressives attitude towards the democrats. Good to know about Diane Feinstein. Not that I would be in a position to vote for her or anything, but...
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2017 04:27 pm
@revelette1,
Establishment Democrats are locked into a mindset and chained to big money in ways that have lost us congress, state governments, SCOTUS and POTUS. What do you think?
revelette1
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2017 04:37 pm
@edgarblythe,
So do you think that kind of attitude will persuade any minds of establishment democrats to get out the establishment? Or do we not deserve the same consideration as Trump's fans?
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2017 04:45 pm
@revelette1,
We begged and pleaded for a couple of years with no give.
revelette1
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2017 04:46 pm
@edgarblythe,
You (as in progressives) begged with an attitude, nothing like the speech President Lincoln gave.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2017 04:55 pm
@revelette1,
It's hard to be humble when getting run over with a bulldozer.
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 May, 2017 05:08 pm
@edgarblythe,
Goddamn right.
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  3  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2017 11:43 am
@edgarblythe,
Who said anything about being humble, just maybe not so accusatory to those who felt differently but had some of the same goals. I know I have never been a bulldozer. Or are you talking about the DNC now and not individuals like Lincoln was in his speech?

I am not sure why those who are disenchanted with the DNC or the democratic party just don't run as a third party and try to get more people to join them by talking about a better way of reaching the same goals without the need to demonize those in the democratic party. I mean if you feel comfortable dishing out advice for democrats to be nicer to republicans in order to get more accomplished, perhaps the advice could be spread around.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2017 12:23 pm
@revelette1,
The DNC blatantly sabotaged Sanders at every turn. Even today they do all they can to exclude his brand of politics. This despite what I wrote above:

Establishment Democrats are locked into a mindset and chained to big money in ways that have lost us congress, state governments, SCOTUS and POTUS.

Oblivious. They think they can play a waiting game and then step into a position of power, a position that was slipping away even before Obama got elected. Democrats don't need gentleness. They need a boot in the ass.
revelette1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2017 12:26 pm
@edgarblythe,
Ok, just don't be going around giving others advice you are not willing to apply to yourself.
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2017 12:32 pm
@revelette1,
You totally misread on purpose the advice in the column, which is why you will always be on the losing side.
revelette1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2017 03:08 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
When Abraham Lincoln was 33 years old, he gave a speech inside a Presbyterian church to a temperance society. His message: The assembled ought to be nicer to drinkers and sellers of alcohol, rather than shunning them, or denouncing them as moral pestilences. Indeed, they ought to use “kindly persuasion,” even if a man’s drunkenness had caused misery to his wife, or left his children hungry and naked with want.

For people are never less likely to change, to convert to new ways of thinking or acting, than when it means joining the ranks of their denouncers.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2017 03:49 pm
@revelette1,
You are the denouncers, the deniers. But you want to make out that liberals are the aggressors. I would not mind your committing political suicide, but you are taking down the rest of us with you, so far.
revelette1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2017 05:42 pm
@edgarblythe,
I don't know if you get the irony, but you are denouncing while talking about me being a denouncer; sort of the way it went during the primaries. In any case, I will agree to disagree, even if you do not.
ossobucotemp
 
  2  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2017 05:46 pm
@edgarblythe,
I am unhappy with your insults to revelette, who is one of the most lucid persons on a2k. On dots on a spectrum, I may be left of you.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sun 7 May, 2017 05:50 pm
@ossobucotemp,
I have not insulted anybody here. We are arguing politics, not trading personal insults. Mind your own business.
 

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