How can I handle a relationship that my husband has?

God, men are such selfish pricks sometimes...I can't believe he is ignoring your feelings on this issue...you would be wise to seek couseling early...

welcome to a2k..

perspective
I think you and your husband need perspective in order to build a better marriage wherein both of you can be happy. The time that your husband spends nurturing his friendship/relationship with the other woman causes you pain, makes you unhappy in your marriage, and takes time away from YOU.

I recommend that both you and your husband review the articles and lessons on the Marriage Builders website and pay special attention to the basic concepts. I also recommend that you read the articles on infidelity. If your husband wants to restore the love and happiness in your marriage, he MUST give up the other woman and break all ties to her.

Here is a summary of the website:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_summary.html

A Summary of Basic Concepts

You have just been introduced to all the Basic Concepts that I use whenever I try to save a marriage. If you apply them all to your marriage, you will do what most couples want to do, but have failed to do -- fall in love and stay in love. And that's what ultimately saves marriage -- restoring the feeling of love.

Of course, it takes much more than just the feeling of love to build a successful marriage. It takes your willingness and ability to care for and protect each other. But that feeling of incredible attraction is the best litmus test of your success in giving each other the care and protection that you need. If you are both in love, your Takers are convinced that the relationship is a good deal for both of you, and will not interfere with what's going on. Your Givers have free reign to provide each other the best of what you both have to offer.

When you are in love, your emotions help you meet each other's emotional needs. They provide instincts that you may not have even known you have -- instincts to be affectionate, sexual, conversational, recreational, honest and admiring. These all seem to come naturally when you are in love.

But when you fall out of love, everything that will help your marriage seems unnatural. Your instincts turn against marital recovery, and toward divorce. That's why I've created these Basic Concepts -- to help you do what it takes to restore your love for each other when you are not in love, when you don't feel like doing any of them. And then once your love is restored, these concepts will help you stay in love for the rest of your lives.

I present my summary of basic concepts in a slightly different order than they were first presented to you. When they are presented briefly, they're a little more logical when presented this way.

Basic Concept #1: The Love Bank

In my struggle to learn how to save marriages, I eventually discovered that the best way to do it was to teach couples how to fall in love with each other -- and stay in love. So I created a concept that I called the Love Bank to help couples understand how people fall in and out of love. This concept, perhaps more than any other that I created, helped couples realize that almost everything they did affected their love for each other either positively or negatively. And that awareness set most of them on a course of action that preserved their love and saved their marriages.

Within each of us is a Love Bank that keeps track of the way each person treats us. Everyone we know has an account and the things they do either deposit or withdraw love units from their accounts. It's your emotions' way of encouraging you to be with those who make you happy. When you associate someone with good feelings, deposits are made into that person's account in your Love Bank. And when the Love Bank reaches a certain level of deposits (the romantic love threshold), the feeling of love is triggered. As long as your Love Bank balance remains above that threshold, you will experience the feeling of love. But when it falls below that threshold, you will lose that feeling. You will like anyone with a balance above zero, but you will only be in love with someone whose balance is above the love threshold.

However, your emotions do not simply encourage you to be with those who make you happy -- they also discourage you from being with those who make you unhappy. Whenever you associate someone with bad feelings, withdrawals are made in your Love Bank. And if you withdraw more than you deposit, your Love Bank balance can fall below zero. When that happens the Love Bank turns into the Hate Bank. You will dislike those with moderate negative balances, but if the balance falls below the hate threshold, you will hate the person.

Try living with a spouse you hate! Your emotions are doing everything they can to get you out of there -- and divorce is one of the most logical ways to escape.

Couples usually ask for my advice when they are just about ready to throw in the towel. Their Love Banks have been losing love units so long that they are now deeply in the red. And their negative Love Bank accounts make them feel uncomfortable just being in the same room with each other. They cannot imagine surviving marriage for another year, let alone ever being in love again.

But that's my job -- to help them fall in love with each other again. I encourage them to stop making Love Bank withdrawals, and start making Love Bank deposits. I created all of the remaining Basic Concepts to help couples achieve those objectives.

Basic Concept #2: Instincts and Habits

Instincts are behavioral patterns that we are born with, and habits are patterns that we learn. Both of them tend to be repeated again and again almost effortlessly. They are important in our discussion of what it takes to be in love because it's our behavior that makes deposits and withdrawals from Love Banks, and our instincts and habits make up most of our behavior.

Instincts and habits can make Love Bank deposits, so it is imperative to know how to create those habits because once they are learned, deposits are made repeatedly and almost effortlessly.

Unfortunately, many of our instincts and habits, such as angry outbursts, contribute to Love Bank withdrawals. Since they are repeated so often, they play a very important role in the annihilation of Love Bank accounts. If we are to stop Love Bank withdrawals, we must somehow stop destructive instincts and habits in their tracks. Instincts are harder to stop than habits, but they can both be avoided.

As we discuss the remaining concepts, keep in mind the value of a good habit, and the harm of a bad habit, because their effect on Love Bank balances are multiplied by repetition.

Basic Concept #3: The Most Important Emotional Needs

How can you deposit love units into each other's Love Banks the fastest? That's a question I asked literally hundreds of couples when I was first learning how to save marriages. Eventually their answer became clear to me -- you must meet each other's most important emotional needs.

You and your spouse fell in love with each other because you made each other very happy, and you made each other happy because you met some of each other's important emotional needs. The only way you and your spouse will stay in love is to keep meeting those needs. Even when the feeling of love begins to fade, or when it's gone entirely, it's not necessarily gone for good. It can be recovered whenever you both go back to making large Love Bank deposits.

First, be sure you know what each other's most important emotional needs are (complete the Emotional Needs Questionnaire). Then, learn to meet the needs that are rated the highest in a way that is fulfilling to your spouse, and enjoyable for you, too.

It's likely that you and your spouse do not prioritize your needs in the same order of importance. A highly important need for you may not be as important to your spouse. So you may find yourself trying to meet needs that seem unimportant to you. But your spouse depends on you to meet those needs, and it's the most effective and efficient way for you make large Love Bank deposits.

Basic Concept #4: The Policy of Undivided Attention

Unless you and your spouse schedule time each week for undivided attention, it will be impossible to meet each other's most important emotional needs. So to help you and your spouse clear space in your schedule for each other, I have written the Policy of Undivided Attention: Give your spouse your undivided attention a minimum of fifteen hours each week, using the time to meet the emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. This policy will help you avoid one of the most common mistakes in marriage -- neglecting each other.

This Basic Concept not only helps guarantee that you will meet each other's emotional needs, but it also unlocks the door to the use of all the other basic concepts. Without time for undivided attention you will not be able to avoid Love Busters and you will not be able to negotiate effectively. Time for undivided attention is the necessary ingredient for everything that's important in marriage.

And yet, as soon as most couples marry, and especially when children arrive, couples usually replace their time together with activities of lesser importance. You probably did the same thing. You tried to meet each other's needs with time "left over," but sadly, there wasn't much time left over. Your lack of private time together may have become a great cause of unhappiness, and yet you felt incapable of preventing it. You may have also found yourself bottling up your honest expression of feelings because there was just no appropriate time to talk.

Make your time to be alone with each other your highest priority -- that way it will never be replaced by activities of lesser value. Your career, your time with your children, maintenance of your home, and a host of other demands will all compete for your time together. But if you follow the Policy of Undivided Attention, you will not let anything steal from those precious and crucial hours together.

I suggest that you (a) spend time away from children and friends whenever you give each other your undivided attention; (b) use the time to meet the emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment; and (c) schedule at least fifteen hours together each week. When you were dating, you gave each other this kind of attention and you fell in love. When people have affairs, they also give each other this kind of attention to keep their love for each other alive. Why should courtship and affairs be the only times love is created? Why can't it happen in marriage as well? It can, if you set aside time every week to give each other undivided attention.

Basic Concept #5: Love Busters

When you meet each other's most important emotional needs, you become each other's source of greatest happiness. But if you are not careful, you can also become each other's source of greatest unhappiness.

It's pointless to deposit love units if you withdraw them right away. So in addition to meeting important emotional needs, you must be sure to protect your spouse, and the Love Bank, from withdrawals. And paying attention to how your everyday behavior can make each other unhappy does that.

You and your spouse were born to be demanding, disrespectful, angry, annoying, independent (insensitive) and dishonest. These are normal human traits that I call Love Busters because they destroy the feeling of love spouses have for each other. But if you promise to avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness, you will do whatever it takes to overcome these destructive tendencies for your spouse's protection. By eliminating Love Busters, you will not only be protecting your spouse, but you will also be preserving your spouse's love for you.

Basic Concept #6: The Policy of Radical Honesty

It isn't easy to be honest. Honesty is an unpopular value these days, and most couples have not made this commitment to each other. Many marriage counselors and clergymen argue that honesty is not always the best policy. They believe that it's cruel to disclose past indiscretions and it's selfish to make such disclosures. While it makes you feel better to get a mistake off your chest, it causes your partner to suffer. So, they argue, the truly caring thing to do is to lie about your mistakes or at least keep them tucked away.

And if it's compassionate to lie about sins of the past, why isn't it also compassionate to lie about sins of the present -- or future? To my way of thinking, it's like letting the proverbial camel's nose under the tent. Eventually you will be dining with the camel. Either honesty is always right, or you'll always have an excuse for being dishonest.

To help remind couples how important honesty is in marriage, I have written the Policy of Radical Honesty: Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know; your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future.

Self-imposed honesty with your spouse is essential to your marriage's safety and success. Honesty will not only bring you closer to each other emotionally, it will also prevent the creation of destructive habits that are kept secret from your partner.

The Policy of Radical Honesty combined with the Policy of Joint Agreement are two guidelines that will help you create an open and integrated lifestyle, one that will guarantee your love for each other. They also prevent the creation of a secret second life where infidelity, the greatest threat to your marriage, can grow like mold in a damp, dark cellar.

Basic Concept #7: The Giver and Taker

Have you ever thought that your spouse is possessed? One moment he or she is loving and thoughtful, and the next you are faced with selfishness and thoughtlessness. Trust me, it's not a demon you're up against, it's the two sides of our personalities. I call them the Giver and the Taker.

All of us want to make a difference in the lives of other. We want others to be happy, and we want to contribute to their happiness. When we feel that way, our Giver is influencing us. The Giver's rule is do whatever you can to make others happy and avoid anything that makes others unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. It encourages us to use that rule in our relationships with other people.

But we also want the best for ourselves. We want to be happy, too. When we feel that way, our Taker is influencing us. The Taker's rule is do whatever you can to make yourself happy, and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. If that rule ever makes sense to you, it's because your Taker is in control.

These two primitive aspects of our personality are usually balanced in our dealings with others. But in marriage they tend to take turns being in charge. And that leads to most of the problems that couples encounter. If we take the advice of our Giver, we are willing to suffer to make our spouse happy, and if we take the advice of our Taker, we are willing to let our spouse suffer to make us happy. In either case the advice we are given is short sighted because someone always gets hurt.

Basic Concept #8: The Three States of Mind in Marriage

The Giver and Taker create moods that I call states of mind. These states of mind have a tremendous influence on the way a husband and wife try to resolve conflicts. But in each of the three states of mind, negotiation is almost impossible. That's what makes negotiation, in general, so tough in marriage.

When we are in love and happy, we are usually in the State of Intimacy. That state of mind is controlled by the Giver, which encourages us to follow the Giver's rule: do whatever you can to make your spouse happy and avoid anything that makes your spouse unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. That rule can lead to habits that may be good for our spouse, but can be disastrous for us because we are not negotiating with our own interests in mind.

Sadly, flawed agreements made in the state of Intimacy can lead to our own unhappiness, and that in turn wakes the slumbering Taker. As long as we are happy, our Taker has nothing to do, but when we start feeling unhappy, our Taker rises to our rescue and triggers the State of Conflict. With the Taker now in charge, we are encouraged to follow the rule: do whatever you can to make yourself happy, and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. The Taker also encourages us to be demanding, disrespectful and angry in an effort to force our spouse to make us happy. Fighting is the Taker's favorite "negotiating" strategy.

When fighting doesn't work, and we are still unhappy, the Taker encourages us to take a new course of action that triggers the State of Withdrawal. Instead of trying to force our spouse to make us happy, our Taker wants us to give up on our spouse entirely. We don't want our spouse to do anything for us, and we certainly don't want to do anything for our spouse. In this state of mind we are emotionally divorced.

How can couples work their way back to the state of Intimacy once they find themselves trapped in the state of Withdrawal? And once they are back, how can they stay there? The answers to those questions are found in the next Basic Concept.

Basic Concept #9: The Policy of Joint Agreement

Marital instincts do not lead to fair negotiation. They either lead to giving away the store (state of Intimacy) or robbing the bank (state of Conflict). And in the state of Withdrawal, no one even feels like negotiating. Yet, in order to meet each other's most important needs and avoid Love Busters consistently and effectively, fair negotiation is crucial in marriage.

You need a rule to help you override the shortsighted advice of your Giver and Taker. Their advice is shortsighted because regardless of the rule, someone gets hurt. We get hurt when we follow the Giver's advice and our spouse gets hurt when we follow the Taker's advice. So I've created a rule to guarantee that no one gets hurt, and that's the ultimate goal in fair negotiation. I call this rule the Policy of Joint Agreement: Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.

Almost everything you do affects each other. So it's very important to know what that effect will be before you actually do it. The Policy of Joint Agreement will help you remember to consult with each other to be sure you avoid being the cause of each other's unhappiness. It also makes negotiation necessary, regardless of your state of mind. If you agree to this policy, you will not be able to do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of the other, so it forces you to discuss your plans, and negotiate with each other's feelings in mind. Without safe and pleasant negotiation, you will simply not be able to reach an enthusiastic agreement.

Basic Concept #10: Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation

If you and your spouse are in conflict about anything, I recommend that you do nothing until you can both agree enthusiastically about a resolution. But how should you go about coming to that agreement? I suggest you follow four essential guidelines.

Guideline 1: Set ground rules to make negotiation pleasant and safe.


Ground rule 1: Try to be pleasant and cheerful throughout negotiations
Ground rule 2: Put safety first. Do not make demands, show disrespect, or become angry when you negotiate, even if your spouse makes demands, shows disrespect or becomes angry with you.

Ground rule 3: If you reach an impasse and you do not seem to be getting anywhere, or if one of you is starting to make demands, show disrespect or become angry, stop negotiating and come back to the issue later.

Guideline 2: Identify the problem from both perspectives with mutual respect for those perspectives.

Guideline 3: Brainstorm with abandon - give your creativity a chance to discover solutions that would make you both happy. Carry a pad and pencil with you to jot down ideas as you think of them throughout the day.

Guideline 4: Choose the solution that meets the conditions of the Policy of Joint Agreement best - mutual and enthusiastic agreement.

Whenever a conflict arises keep in mind the importance of finding a solution that will deposit as many love units as possible, while avoiding withdrawals. And be sure that the way you find that solution also deposits love units and avoids withdrawals.

For some reason the words "forsaking all others" popped into my head after reading your post.

Forsake: to renounce or turn away from entirely

I don't see your husband doing that if he still chooses to maintain a relationship with his co-worker. IMO, I don't think all the talking in the world between the two of them about just being friends will make it so. Boundaries have obviously been crossed if he is/was questioning whether he loved you or her more. It happens very often unfortunately.

I can recommend an interesting book that you might want to read and if at all possible, get your husband to read as well. It is named "Too Close to the Flame" written by Dr. Gregg Jantz. It talks about recognizing and avoiding sexualized (whether actual sex is involved or not) relationships.

I'd stand my ground if I were in your shoes and get into some marriage and family counseling....even if you have to go alone. Losing loving trust is horribly painful and not easy to heal without some help.

I wish you all the best...

THAT'S the website!! Debra is a smart cookie.

Debra_Law,
Thank you so much for the information. I am going to forward it to my husband.

He needs to give up being this woman's friend for you, to appease your mind, and to show that you are more important. If he can't do that, then he is not respecting your marraige. He has no right to make you out to be the bad-guy for asking him to let her go...he got himself into this situation, and this is the only way to get out of it without jeopordizing your marraige, and if he isn't willing to do that...than he is choosing to put your marraige on the line.

He should never see his lover again
From an infidelity article:

How to end an affair--Never see or communicate with a former lover:

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. . . .

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

marriage builders


I found this website several years ago after I fell in love. I handled so many UGLY divorces and I was truly thinking that I HATE people! How can they be so cruel and harbor so much animosity toward the person they once vowed to love and cherish forever? I didn't know if I had the skills to make a relationship work.

I read every single article on the website. I apply the basic concepts in my own relationship--and I've never been happier in my life. We're more in love today than when we first met.

Re: marriage builders


It's a wonderful site and having been through a divorce several years ago and now after many, many single years, I am getting married again next year. Granted I was much younger then and quite naive, but now I am older and much more set in my ways. I want to give our marriage every chance of success and the tools to be able to succeed. My fiance is very supportive of this site as well when I told him about it. Both of us being in our 40's now, we no longer look at life through the rose colored glasses we did in our youth. I thank you wholeheartedly for sharing your info and insight.

Forgive me as I laugh at your husband.

Sorry if that's uncaring but right now that's exactly how he's behaving. Let's see - he gets himself into a sticky situation with a coworker (a dumb move no matter what, even if he wasn't married that would be an incredibly, argh, stupid thing to do - you should never date anyone at work), hides it from you for 2 months, has a secret email account that you found, and now blames you and says that you can't put restrictions on his friendship with this woman - a "friendship" that has included them expressing love for one another? A "friendship" wherein they must see each other at least once per week (I don't know how large the company is where they both work) if not once per day? A "friendship" wherein temptation can be there every single day? A "friendship" at his office, in a lousy economy wherein he might not be able to quickly get another job if things were to suddenly turn extremely ugly and the specter of sexual harrassment came up?

Gawd, the gall of some people.

Tell him if he doesn't want to listen to your telling him how to handle this "friendship", perhaps he'd prefer listening to a counselor, or your minister? Or, failing that, perhaps he'd like to listen to a divorce lawyer?

The man is on thin ice. I don't advise being vindictive or cruel, of course, but you absolutely have the right to demand that this alleged "friendship" stop now, before it turns into something else - something that it's already started to turn into.

I also suggest counseling, for both of you - to see why he's doing this, and how it can be prevented in the future.

What would your husband say if you--with two kids in diapers--managed to find a wonderful, soul-satisfying, out-of-the-marriage relationship with a lover?

What would you say about yourself?

Your husband wants to have his cake and eat it too--and you are the one who is being unreasonable?

Others have given you great advice here, so I won't throw in my 2 cents because I wouldn't be as kind as they are. If this situation were to happen to me, it would be over, but that's why I can't give you proper advice.

I truly wish you the very best and my heart goes out to you.

Has he explained just how hard this is on him because he loves you both?

Is he planning to convert to Islam or become a Jack Morman so he can have plural wives?

This is not something you have to "accept"--this is a situation you have to deal with--is his behavior something you want as a role model for your children?

You are not being unreasonable. Rage is a very appropriate emotion.

I can't stop thinking about this and I can't get over the fact that he is acting like this is no big deal. He's treating this like he forgot to bring out the trash and your making a big deal out of nothing and then acts like you're trying to control him by wanting him to end his relationship with a woman he told you he thought he loved. I'm sorry, but your husband is a selfish jerk who doesn't seem to have any sense of obligation to his family and you and your children deserve better than that.

Noey -

Ahh.

Reminds me of a long time friend. She and her husband had a very romantic courtship and wedding. I remember having them come to my first big party... and she was 8 3/4 months pregnant; they only stayed a short time, but wanted to be there.

I found out later that he was having an affair with his poor secretary, who was so needy. His wife was so accomplished, he felt the other woman needed him more. Friend took him back after lots of soulsearching on both sides.

Happened a second time, with the second child.

Divorce after that one.

Her children are grown up now, and she is happily married - some time later - to a man who loves her for who she is. But she had a lot of stress handling all that for a while.

My own take on Noey's situation is that husband is not cherishing his wife and children and - after a lot of years living myself and paying attention to friends' lives - my immediate reaction is get out now while the getting is .... not good, but better than later.

That probably seems rash. Maybe a lot of talk, paying attention to each other, and counselling can sew things back up and both can learn and grow from the experience and learn how to grow and change together. People usually change some ideas and get interested in new things, the trick is to communicate..

Not all married people believe fidelity is the key component of lifetime love, but it seems like that is not the question here - he is just not sure who he gives his Love to. (pffffft!)

From my present vantage point, he would be toast, or at least in the toaster. And yet I can't tell from the posts if husband and coworker were physical lovers. If they were, he'd be slightly toastier.

Not so much because I think an affair is wrong... I'm not sure I do, re personal rights. But as an indicator of how much the marriage is out of sync.



An aside to the main questions here -
I worry about the tenor of the calls for no friendship here.
Not that I disagree re this particular workmate - they made a romantic jump that makes the once a day, once a week needs laughable, as jespah says.
But I do think men and women at work can be real friends, and sometimes flirty. I am not enthusiastic about the direction that a woman marries at nineteen or twenty four or thirty and then never has another male friend, and vice versa. Forget it, too claustrophobic, and it would, to me, curdle a marriage, too little air.

Osso,
I appreciate your response. There was no physical contact, that I am aware of. (Besides holding hands.) I feel that if my husband would have been honest with me from the beginning, I would not have a problem with the fact that he has a female friend. But with the lying, and betrayal of not telling me, and the fact that they do have feelings for each other, that is what I have a problem with. I have many conflicting thoughts in my head. I want to forgive him, because I love him and we do have two children together. On the other hand, I don't want to get hurt again.............

Yes, I understand.

Hello Noey,

my heart goes out to you. It is obvious that you love
your husband very much, otherwise you would not accept his behavior. Unfortunately this puts you in a very vulnerable position: you put yourself at his mercy and he's not respecting your feelings or your conderns. He, in fact,
doesn't care if you're hurting, he follows selfishly his
own course and does what he desires.

I'm afraid, your holding out and being quiet and hoping things will change for the better, does not make him respect you in the future either.

Standing up to him, telling him of his responsibilities and
the consequences, should he choose to ignore you, THAT
will make him think and re-evaluate your relationship,
THat will make him respect you and your wishes in the
future, but not sitting by the fire and suffering in silence.

It is a tough thing to do, especially when you love someone,
but I don't think you have any other choice, without losing
his respect altogether.

I think some of the problem is that women view emotional attachment as a form of infidelity whereas men seem to think they have to stick it to someone to be screwing around. I had the same problem with my husband when he met a woman (who just happened to have the same name as me) when he was away for work. He went to a party with her, hung around with her and gave her our home phone number (which she would call at 5 am when she was drunk) and he had NO IDEA why this would upset me 'cause he hadn't slept with her. He just really really liked her alot. Men don't understand the idea of emotional infidelity and how women view it.