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Kerry's Words Used by Enemy Against Tortured US POWs

 
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 10:28 am
why do you admire bush making unpopular decisions but sticking to his principles regardless (His exact words)but find the same actions and characteristics so abhorrent in Kerry?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 10:30 am
They would have tortured these people anyways.

This is the dumbest f*cking thing I have ever heard. So, in your opinion, noone is allowed to speak out against what we are doing in wartime, just in case it might hurt the enemies? Ever?

If another country was practicing what you considered to be war crimes during an attack on America or our allies, would you want dissenters in their country to keep quiet? Just in case we used that information to torture their citizens? Or would you support voices working to end war and torture?

Cycloptichorn
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 10:41 am
sozobe wrote:
I believe that men who were prisoners of war were upset by what Kerry said. (Not all of them, mind you -- McCain being a notable example of a POW who has been supportive of Kerry, even when it was politically awkward for him to do so.)

My question is, then what? Was Kerry supposed to say nothing because it would upset them?

Take Abu Ghraib. I'm sure that American soldiers in Iraq were upset at having their honor sullied by what those Americans did at Abu Ghraib. But are the people who knew about the abuses there supposed to say nothing because it would hurt morale?


The POWs in Vietnam were mostly pilots shot down over the North. They had NOTHING in common with the miscreant guards in Abu Gharb. However Kerry accused these pilots and others who also served honorably of systematic and widespread war crimes. These accusations were used by the NV to both advance their political strategy in an ongoing war in which our military people were still fighting and dieing, and to uindermine the morale of POWs, many of whom had undergone torture and long (years) periods of solitary confinement.

Kerry defended himself for the crime of testifying under oath about war crimes which he failed to report as a serving commissioned officer by saying that he never observed any war crimes or atrocities himself, but was merely repeating the testimony of the VVAW given at the infamous Detroit meeting. However, in typical fashion he wanted to have it both ways, and also stated that the search and destroy program was itself a warcrime.

There may be an ex POW somewhere who doesn't loathe Kerry, but I haven't met him (and I know many of them.). It isn't accurate for you to say that McCain supports or supported Kerry. He has declared his support for Bush (whom he doesn't like) and has declined Kerry's officer of a position on his ticket as Vice President. Seems fairly clear to me.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 10:45 am
Quote:
However Kerry accused these pilots and others who also served honorably of systematic and widespread war crimes.


And rightly so. It's stupid to keep pretending that we didn't committ war crimes there. That's the real crux of this issue; people don't want people implying that we committed war crimes, when there is a massive amount of evidence that we did, and that the higher-ups knew we were doing it.

One can never be faulted for telling the truth. Kerry didn't say 'every soldier committed these crimes,' he said they went on a lot.

It's analogous to an article I read the other day showing how Lynnie England (sp?), who was in the Abu Grhaib photos and is indicted, is treated like a hero in her hometown, while the whistleblower is treated like a traitor. You people just don't want to believe that the US is capable of doing bad things....

Cycloptichorn
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 10:47 am
you mean that rumor that Kerry offered him the vp spot and then the repubs used as gospel to make him look bad?
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 10:49 am
Quote:
However Kerry accused these pilots and others who also served honorably of systematic and widespread war crimes.


Bullshit, as usual. Kerry was referring to GROUND FORCES! Show us ANY quote where Kerry specifically referred to the actions of PILOTS vs. GROUND FORCES.
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 10:50 am
Dookiestix wrote:
Quote:
But let's not just forget he said them, shall we?


What the hell does that mean? Of COURSE he said them. Rolling Eyes


So he should accept the fallout that comes from uttering those words.



Cycloptichorn wrote:
They would have tortured these people anyways.


That's not a very sensitive attitude, is it?

Cycloptichorn wrote:
This is the dumbest f*cking thing I have ever heard. So, in your opinion, noone is allowed to speak out against what we are doing in wartime, just in case it might hurt the enemies? Ever?


Did your read what I said above about the First Amendment? Of course people are allowed to speak their opinions. I suppose if we are at war and the comments give aid and comfort to the enemy, there might be some laws preventing such speech, but as far as I know Kerry's not being accused of breaking any laws. The concern is the practical effect of his words on our soldiers and POWs.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
If another country was practicing what you considered to be war crimes during an attack on America or our allies, would you want dissenters in their country to keep quiet? Just in case we used that information to torture their citizens? Or would you support voices working to end war and torture?


They should speak their minds also. But they too might have political fallout should they run for president of their country.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 11:02 am
sozobe wrote:
McG, it's been mentioned, sure. Just, Kerry "only wanted to talk about Vietnam at his convention -- not his record."? No.

Ticomaya, what has been debunked (I'm not saying I'm the only one to do so) is whether he lied, and whether atrocities were committed.

I believe that men who were prisoners of war were upset by what Kerry said. (Not all of them, mind you -- McCain being a notable example of a POW who has been supportive of Kerry, even when it was politically awkward for him to do so.)

My question is, then what? Was Kerry supposed to say nothing because it would upset them?

Take Abu Ghraib. I'm sure that American soldiers in Iraq were upset at having their honor sullied by what those Americans did at Abu Ghraib. But are the people who knew about the abuses there supposed to say nothing because it would hurt morale?


I don't recall anyone accusing EVERY US soldier of being guilty of abusing prisoners in Abu Ghraib. That was the end result of what Kerry did. He accused EVERY US soldier of committing war crimes. Do you see the difference?
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 11:12 am
Quote:
He accused EVERY US soldier of committing war crimes.


No, he didn't. Please provide us a direct quote where Kerry said EVERY soldier in Vietnam.

Put up or shut up, McGentrix.
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 11:16 am
george wrote

Quote:
It isn't accurate for you to say that McCain supports or supported Kerry. He has declared his support for Bush (whom he doesn't like) and has declined Kerry's officer of a position on his ticket as Vice President. Seems fairly clear to me.


It would be more accurate to say that McCain respects Kerry and doesn't hold a thing against him over Vietnam. I have posted an article attesting to this.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 11:20 am
There's also Bob Kerrey, a friend and colleague of Kerry's.

The purpose of Kerry's testimony to systematic war crimes was to indicate that they were SYSTEMATIC. Individuals themselves were not directly responsible but the people who made decisions and gave orders were responsible.

In the end it comes down to: is it better to hide wrong or right wrong?
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willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 11:36 am
Apparently the Right thinks it is better to hide ones head in the sand or lie about it...whether it be Vietnam war crimes, selling arms to Iraq, WMD, never making mistakes...
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 11:44 am
Stupid Ostriches.

They don't want to believe that the things Kerry said back in the day had truth to them, so they hold it against him now...

This despite large amounts of evidence that show him to be correct in his statements. The willingness of hawks to pull the wool over their own eyes is scary.

Cycloptichorn
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 11:59 am
FreeDuck wrote:

In the end it comes down to: is it better to hide wrong or right wrong?


I like that
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:05 pm
http://www.nzavs.org.nz/graphics/headSand.jpg
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Einherjar
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:10 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
http://www.nzavs.org.nz/graphics/headSand.jpg


That goes so well with your signature. Laughing
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:32 pm
I was thinking the same thing Laughing
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mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 04:32 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Are you saying you "debunked" this point:

Quote:
Whether he spoke the truth or not (and I don't think he did) is immaterial. What is important is the effect that his words had on the men who had been captured on the battlefields of Vietnam, and had to endure torture because of his decision to denigrate the American soldier.[/size]


It has been debunked. Here.

Quote:
FACTS: Recent remarks by two of the film's featured POWs -- James Warner and Leo K. Thorsness -- contradict the claim that Kerry's actions worsened the POWs' treatment when under interrogation.

As Washington Dispatch managing editor Shane Cory noted in an October 15 editorial, Stolen Honor interviewee and former POW James Warner wrote in a July 2004 editorial for the military magazine Soldier of Fortune that "the last torture that we knew of had taken place in September of 1969." That was two years before Kerry's 1971 testimony. Also, in the same editorial, Warner recounted an instance in which Kerry's name was used for interrogation purposes against him, but then noted that the interrogation occurred "without torture."

Cory also documented that Thorsness -- who claimed POWs were "tortured to say the same thing that he [Kerry] is saying" -- had actually admitted in a published bio that the use of torture had decreased by the time Kerry testified. On March 3, 1997, Thorsness conveyed to the Missouri nonprofit group the POW Network that the amount of torture to which he was subjected had declined dramatically by the time Kerry returned from Vietnam to protest the war: "He [Thorsness] was held six years [1967-1973]. Three years were brutal and the second three years were 'boring' as torture eased because of pressure in the U.S. from family members." As the Detroit Free Press noted on July 19, 2003, the POW Network is "a nonprofit in Skidmore, Mo., [that] has compiled about 5,000 pages of information from public records and published news accounts on missing military personnel and posted them on the Internet."
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