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Dems Cheating Earlier Than Usual--Perverting Democracy

 
 
Armyvet35
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2004 03:39 pm
And the republican right already chalanging voters before they vote in order to slow down the voter lines so they get tired of waiting and leave the poleing places is ok. There are a number of ways to see cheating but at least be honest enough to admit the the repubs are just as adept at it as the dems. At least the dems try to get everyone to vote because it is to thier advantage. And as I understand the law everyone who registers has the right to vote weather they are rich, poor, drunks, religious, or agnostic.

Dont fool yourself... democrats have files more law suits then nader and the republicans have already.... all three of the parties are doing it... dont finger point to one....
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hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2004 03:39 pm
Ah, Lash, I have to agree with Magus. I would surmise that if the Republicans don't employ this tactic it's because they've got one that's more effective. (I seem to remember they've tried bugging the Dems in the lead up to 1972).

McG - If it's any consolation, in Oz, pond scum of all creeds are made to vote, and the right wing party just got in - that's a pretty impressive rant you've got going there - implementing apartheid based on perceived drinking habits. I guess Ulysses S. Grant wouldn't have made the cut to your new country.
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Joe Republican
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2004 03:46 pm
Armyvet35 wrote:
And as I understand the law everyone who registers has the right to vote weather they are rich, poor, drunks, religious, or agnostic.

Problem is if you have to bribe people to vote... then they shouldnt be voting... if you have to go to their homes to register them and then pick them up to go to the polls they shouldnt be voting...


both parties are guilty of this....


I will be the first to admit, it's bad on both sides. Last election, the repubs got the best of the dems with their tricks. The dems never saw it coming. This election, they're pulling out all the tricks as well. Either way you look at it, it's completely wrong, and un-democratic, but then again that's par for the course over the past couple of years. Redistricting in Texas sound familiar?
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2004 06:19 pm
Redistricting has been going on for ages. It reflects recent census. Its necessary. The gerrymandering is a bit much at times, but it's equal opportunity stupidity...
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2004 06:32 pm
Nasty old Democrats.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2004 06:39 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
Nasty old Democrats.



Your new signature reads:

Quote:
To assert you know nothing, therefore nobody knows anything, is kinda lame. Eh, Frank?


Absolutely, Edgar. Which is why I would never assert that.

Why did you bring that up?
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2004 06:41 pm
heh heh
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2004 06:43 pm
He's wascally.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2004 07:36 pm
See below ...
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Joe Republican
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2004 07:44 pm
Lash wrote:
Redistricting has been going on for ages. It reflects recent census. Its necessary. The gerrymandering is a bit much at times, but it's equal opportunity stupidity...


You must not be aware at how it is illegal then?

The Mass. Speaker of the House was just forced to resign because of redistricting. The FBI was investegating him and forced him to resign or face prosecution, the same should be done with Delay. He should be forced to resign because of the gerrymandering.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/10/18/texas.redistricting.reut/
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2004 07:54 pm
This seems relevant here:

(Sorry for the long paste, but access is subscriber-only I gather).

Looks like it's the Republicans who are ignoring and contravening the law, and lying to voters about it ...

Quote:
THE GOP KILLS VOTER REFORM.
HAVAC
by Alec Appelbaum


The New Republic
Post date: 10.23.04
Issue date: 11.01.04

In August 10, Peggy Tibbetts went to vote in Colorado's state primary at the same Garfield County polling place she has used for eight years. But she never cast a ballot. Poll workers barred Tibbetts from voting because she wasn't carrying identification. A supervisor offered her a provisional ballot but advised her that it probably wouldn't be counted.

Tibbetts had run smack into Colorado's interpretation of a 2002 federal law called the Help America Vote Act (hava). Hava, requires ID checks on new voters who register by mail. But a lawsuit filed by Colorado Common Cause on behalf of Tibbetts and two other voters contends that Colorado overstepped the law by demanding identification for all voters. "They went so far beyond hava that they tripped over the Constitution," says Colorado Common Cause Director Pete Maysmith. Voters in South Carolina, South Dakota, New Mexico, Florida, and elsewhere also say officials, citing hava, have interfered with voting. As it happens, these officials are probably violating hava. But, since the law left states free to implement hava as they saw fit, local officials like the ones Tibbetts encountered are likely to decide who gets to vote on November 2.

The main purpose of hava was to require states to create voter databases that would help them screen out mistaken or ineligible ballots by January of this year. Though they could have gotten federal money to create these computerized registries, 41 legislatures took waivers, allowing them to put the databases on hold until 2006. Nonetheless, the Help America Vote Act will affect this November's elections--just not in the way its name implies. Instead of building comprehensive voting systems, Republican officials in several states are exploiting hava's voter-identification requirements to disenfranchise likely Democratic voters.

The ID rules in hava have their roots in the Ford-Carter Commission, a bipartisan effort that, in 2001, recommended changes to voting procedures in the wake of the 2000 Florida election debacle. Many of the Commission's recommendations were eventually adopted by Congress--as part of hava. But so was the Commission's ambiguity about using ID rules to protect voters' rights and diminish the risk of fraud. Tova Andrea Wang, who staffed the 2001 Commission, says, "ID was the most controversial provision when this whole thing was being hashed out."

The question of how to verify that a voter belongs at a polling place provokes strong partisan sentiments, because small errors have decided dozens of races. John Mark Hansen, a University of Chicago scholar who researched voter identification for the 2001 Commission, found that, since 1948, 32 senators, 41 governors, and 31 electoral college slates prevailed by less than a 1 percent margin. Hansen also found that roughly 5 percent of Americans have no photo identification. And these Americans tend to be poorer, less educated, and more urban. Since Democrats historically have outnumbered Republicans in this demographic, each party suspects the other of manipulating voter rolls. "Republicans are convinced that Democrats pack a lot of noncitizens [onto the rolls], and Democrats are convinced that Republicans pile on unnecessary restrictions," says Hansen.

When Congress considered election reform in 2002, these divisions came to a head. Missouri Republican Senator Kit Bond blamed bogus voter registrations--including those of corpses and at least one spaniel--for fellow Missourian John Ashcroft's squeaker loss in his 2000 Senate race. While reporters dwelled on the perils of new voting machines, Bond marshaled Republican forces to embed strict voter-identification requirements into federal law. Two Democrats, New York's Chuck Schumer and Oregon's Ron Wyden, countered by trying to make a signature an acceptable form of identification. Republicans defeated this idea by invoking the possibility of massive election fraud. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania warned that someone "dead or never in existence" could use a signature to mask an illegitimate vote. The Republicans had another, implicit argument: A law that demands physical documents makes things easier on local officials. "Signature validation imposes significant costs on election administrators," noted Hansen's 2001 report. "Proof of identity places burdens on voters, especially voters who are poor and urban."

Hava struck a compromise between these burdens. It requires identification only from people who register for the first time by mail. The identification can be a bank statement, utility bill, driver's license, or another government document. And, even if a voter never provides identification, a poll worker must give the voter a provisional ballot. By requiring identification only from newcomers who haven't visited the county clerk's office, hava entrusts local election officials to decide whether voters are who they claim to be. And it ultimately protects voters by telling states to set up rules for counting provisional ballots. "Hava does not require identification in order to have a vote counted," says Wendy Weiser, a lawyer with New York University's Brennan Center for Justice. But many Republican election officials are conducting this year's vote as if it does.

Around the country, GOP officials are downplaying or ignoring hava's voter protections. South Carolina's election workers' manual--authorized by the state elections commission, which is chaired by a Republican--contradicts hava's provisional ballot requirements. "If a person presents himself ... without a valid [photo ID or registration certificate]," it says, "he/she should not be allowed to vote." In Colorado, where the chief election officer is also a Republican, the new voter registration form lists a driver's license or state-issued ID number as "required," even though the law allows other documents. And, in Bond's home state of Missouri, the law lets partisan poll workers waive ID requirements. It requires documents from "some government agency" or a post-secondary school at the polling place. (Poorer people are less likely to attend college.) But, if Ashcroft leaves his wallet in the car, he'll have no hassle. "Personal knowledge of the voter by two supervisory election judges is acceptable voter identification," says the law. Hypothetically, partisan election judges could waive in voters from their own party whom they "recognize," while barring others from the polling place.

In South Carolina's coastal Georgetown County, the list of acceptable identifications excludes entitlement cards, such as Social Security and Medicare cards. Fearing that these rules would make it too difficult for many poor people to register, a Democratic activist named Carol Winans decided to conduct a door-to-door registration drive. But, when she went to collect blank registration forms for this effort, county election commission Chairman Herb Bailey, a Republican, refused to let her have them. Bailey told me that the state election commission advised him to cut off volunteer registration efforts, on the grounds that voters can register themselves easily enough: "It might not be my personal preference, but it's the law." But Winans smells partisan trickery. "They saw Democrats volunteering and said, 'Carol, why would you want all these uninformed voters who don't take the trouble to register themselves?'" she says.

Some ID rules seem specially designed to help Republicans in this year's key races. Colorado's tight Senate race pits Pete Coors, a Republican, against Attorney General Ken Salazar. Colorado Progressive Coalition Co-Director Bill Vandenberg says his organization has registered over 9,000 new Latino voters--likely Salazar supporters--since June. But a September 13 ruling by Donetta Davidson, Colorado's Republican secretary of state, says that, if a voter goes to the wrong precinct and gets a provisional ballot, the state will only count the ballot's presidential and vice-presidential vote. That matters politically, since new voters are likelier than seasoned ones to get confused about precincts and show up at the wrong polling place. (On October 14, an Ohio judge nixed an edict from the Republican secretary of state that would have refused ballots to voters in the wrong precinct; a Colorado judge upheld Davidson's finer formulation at around the same time. Democrats in Michigan and unions in Florida have brought similar cases.)

In New Mexico, where Bush lost by 366 votes in 2000, conservatives sued to require identification from anyone who signed up in a voter-registration drive. Secretary of State Rebecca Vigil-Giron, a Democrat, said identification was required only from voters who mail in forms--just as hava prescribes. A judge upheld Vigil-Giron's interpretation on September 7. But Senator Pete Domenici hurried into the fray on September 21, introducing a stand-alone federal law that would apply ID requirements to registration drives. (The law is sitting in committee.) "You can't fix [voter fraud] in the state courts because every state judge I know--and, I hate to say it, because they are nice guys and nice ladies--they all are, with few exceptions, partisan Democrats," Domenici told the Scripps-Howard News Service. Appellate judges ruled in Vigil-Giron's favor on September 28.

But it is poll workers, not judges, who will largely determine what happens on Election Day, and a case in South Dakota suggests that Republicans can exploit legal confusion. A 2003 law in that state allows signed affidavits as identification, but voters on or near Indian reservations testified that officials barred them from a June 1 primary for not carrying documents. Bret Healy, a former head of the South Dakota Democratic Party, runs a voter-access organization called the Four Directions Committee. He mounted a campaign to get postings at each polling place to explain that affidavits were legit--a vital point for Native Americans who often don't carry government-issued cards. Healy's campaign succeeded in time for November 2. But he still expects trouble. "The message that you don't need an ID never sunk in with election workers," he says.

The basic problem is that Congress has legislated rational voting processes but not obliged states to act rationally. "Under hava, every state is supposed to have an administrative complaint procedure," Wang says. "This has been completely ignored." So poll workers referring to state interpretations of hava will determine who gets to vote on November 2. And, now that having identification on Election Day has become a partisan issue, cliffhanger races may depend on how long people like Peggy Tibbetts are willing to stand in a polling place and argue.

Alec Appelbaum is a writer in New York City.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 08:57 pm
So, making sure the personal voting is actually the person they say they are is some evil Republican ploy TO IDENTIFY REGISTERED VOTERS?

And, this is wrong HOW?

It is supreme idiocy to complain that one party is trying to reduce fraud.

We have always had to have our voter registration card or ID. How else can you tell that it's not just someone going around and voting in every precinct they choose? Really. This is a lame attempt at trying to give credibility to cheaters.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 02:36 am
Republican election officials are explicitly insisting on having voters IDing themselves by only drivers license or photo ID, even though the law explicitly allows for other forms of ID as well. Coincidentally, the roughly 5 percent of Americans who do not have photo identification "tend to be poorer, less educated, and more urban" - voters among whom "Democrats historically have outnumbered Republicans".

We are explicitly talking about Republican officials ignoring the provisions of the law and telling voters they can not vote if they do not meet criteria that are not actually the ones laid out in the law. This is the equivalent of vigilantism.

And then there's the utter absurdity of state practices like this:

Quote:
in Bond's home state of Missouri, the law lets partisan poll workers waive ID requirements. It requires documents from "some government agency" or a post-secondary school at the polling place. (Poorer people are less likely to attend college.) But, if Ashcroft leaves his wallet in the car, he'll have no hassle. "Personal knowledge of the voter by two supervisory election judges is acceptable voter identification," says the law. Hypothetically, partisan election judges could waive in voters from their own party whom they "recognize," while barring others from the polling place.

Then there's the massive attempt by Republicans to throw out new voter registrations. A political party that puts everything at work to prevent new voters from joining the democratic process. The article mentions the example from SC, and we've already seen the Republican official in Ohio trying to use an obscure provision to throw out any voter registration that was not printed on specific, thick paper (not regular printer paper), who only gave in after a protest drive.

Also in Ohio, the Republicans are now shooting hail at new voter registrations, challenging thousands of them. The seriousness of their concerns can be judged on how an overwhelming majority of the challenges processed thus far have been thrown out because of insufficient grounds, but meanwhile the process is getting so stuck that many new voter registrations might still be being disputed by the time the elections take place.

When one party is doing everything in its power to stop new voters from registering that does tell you something, doesn't it.
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Magus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 12:31 pm
Any party that sees new increased voter participation as a THREAT must be viewed with a skeptical eye.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2004 06:30 pm
When the new party registrants are named Daffy Duck and Mary Poppins--it is time to challenge registration.

Of course this happens in urban areas--where putting in a few hundred fake votes is not as easily caught as in a rural area, where inflated numbers would be caught right away.

There is an area in Ohio where suddenly the newly registered voters outnumbered the amount of voter aged people in that county.

Not preventing new voters. Preventing fraud.

Any party or person who condones fraud should be viewed with a skeptical eye.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2004 08:19 am
Per MSNBC:

WaPo: "yesterday, Republicans in Wisconsin attempted to challenge the registrations of 5,600 voters in Milwaukee but were turned down in a unanimous decision by the city's bipartisan election board ... Republicans denied that they were targeting black voters ..."

LATimes: "Bush administration lawyers argued in three closely contested states last week that only the Justice Department, and not voters themselves, may sue to enforce the voting rights set out in the Help America Vote Act, which was passed in the aftermath of the disputed 2000 election. ... Veteran voting-rights lawyers expressed surprise at the government's action, saying that closing the courthouse door to aspiring voters would reverse decades of precedent... ntil now, the Justice Department and the Supreme Court had taken the view that individual voters could sue to enforce federal election law."

Miami Herald: "Florida's Republican Party said Thursday that it believes nearly 1,000 illegal voters plan to cast ballots this year ... But the party's announcement may face its own challenges. The GOP found the allegedly illegal voters by using the same flawed list of felons that had been drawn up by the state elections division, but was scrapped after news organizations exposed its inaccuracies ..."

USA Today: "Controversy flared in Madison, Wis., on Thursday. Republicans sought to block the city clerk from staying open late to allow voters to cast absentee ballots after a late-afternoon appearance by Democratic candidate John Kerry and rock star Bruce Springsteen. At the Kerry campaign's request, the office was left open until 8 p.m., instead of closing at 4:30 as usual. State GOP Chairman Richard Graber said the decision smacked of politics, but State Elections Board chief Kevin Kennedy said it was legal."
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Magus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2004 06:16 pm
CRUSH the CON-ARTISTS!
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Juando
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 12:16 pm
Republicans are worse
I live in oregon where, for reasons I don't understand, people decided that an exclusively vote by mail system would be grand. No voting booths here. So a little over a year ago a federal law was passed that says new voters (ppl voting in their first national election) had to show 2 pieces of ID when they voted...both of Oregons senators signed a document that was a mutual agreement that Oregon would be exempt because of our unique situation. Ron Wyden and Gordon Smith. So the republican party had a lot of time to think about this..but they have waited until 2 days before elections to challenge Oregons voters. Specifically, they are challenging every single vote by a new voter in oregon because they "did not present two forms of ID when they voted"....209,000 votes. They are doing this because a majority of the new voters are registered democrats...if they were registered republicans I am sure they would have no problem. So they wait until it will be impossible for people to fix it even if they wanted to..by the time our (I say our because this is my first national election and I am in the affected group) ballots are returned to us to fix the problem by going down to the elections office and presenting them picture ID, voting will have been over for a few days. Our wonderful republican senator, Gordon smith who signed the mutual document suddenly has no comment on this issue, he has no back bone to stand up to his party in protection of his state...before I simply would not vote for him...now I will actively work against him next time he is up for election if he continues to do nothing. Do not mistake this for me just being a one view left winger....I would be equally outraged if the democrats were questioning our votes in oregon, and I would be ashamed to be a democrat.
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flyboy804
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 01:29 pm
I am sure that the republicans would not try to stop the votes if they thought they were mostly republican. I am equally sure that the democrats would try to stop the votes if they thought they were mostly republican. Immorality is not party affiliated.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Nov, 2004 01:36 pm
Welcome, Juando!

Some more fun and games:

Quote:
Misleading Calls Made to Michigan Voters


16 minutes ago


By KATHY BARKS HOFFMAN, Associated Press Writer

LANSING, Mich. - Some Michigan voters have received phone calls falsely claiming that Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry (news - web sites) would make gay marriage legal, Kerry's Michigan campaign said Monday.

Both Kerry and his running mate, Sen. John Edwards (news - web sites) of North Carolina, oppose gay marriage and say marriage should be limited to a man and a woman. Kerry has said he supports civil unions.

In a recording of a phone call played for The Associated Press, a young woman says: "When you vote this Tuesday remember to legalize gay marriage by supporting John Kerry. We need John Kerry in order to make gay marriage legal for our city. Gay marriage is a right we all want. It's a basic Democrat principle. It's time to move forward and be progressive. Without John Kerry, George Bush (news - web sites) will stop gay marriage. That's why we need Kerry. So Tuesday, stand up for gay marriage by supporting John Kerry."

The calls began Sunday afternoon, according to Rodell Mollineau, spokesman for Kerry's Michigan campaign. The campaign said voters in Detroit, Grand Rapids, Flint and Pontiac received calls.

"We're shocked and pretty much appalled that Republicans would sink to this in the last 48 hours of the campaign," Mollineau said.

Michigan Republican Party executive director Greg McNeilly said recorded phone calls have been made by former Michigan football coach Bo Schembechler and by President Bush (news - web sites) to Michigan voters, but he didn't know anything about the calls described by the Kerry campaign.

GOP officials, meanwhile, have been getting reports of phone calls being made by a person who says he's representing the Bush campaign, and then unlooses a string of swear words. Another phone call is said to tell voters they've been drafted for military service because Bush needs them for the war in Iraq (news - web sites).

"There are so many reports of phone calls going on right now that appear to be untoward," McNeilly said.
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