An Actual Ethical Dilemma Thread???

In the mid 80's when AIDS first hit the midwest..i was attending church @ MCC which ministers openly to Gay & Lesbians..one night we were all out at the bar talking, when someone brought up the question..if you knew someone had the virus, and you saw them dating a friend of yours ..would you tell your friend that that person was HIV infected...at the time a bunch of our friends were dropping like flies...and the discussion became very heated...

what would you do?

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Good one!

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That's a no-brainer, Willow. We're talking life and death here.

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gustavratzenhofer wrote:

That's a no-brainer, Willow. We're talking life and death here.

at the time Gus, that was my knee jerk response, because i was also the residential manager of the 1st AIDS hospice in KC...but i have to say others opinions swayed me ...

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Uhm... but what is the adherence to the law from Deb's perspective? That she'd already given him the standard warning and didn't need to repeat it? OR that she was bound, since she believed he had forgotten that, to reissue the warning?

I think that justice is in the hands of individuals, btw, and that the Law, such as it is, occasionally steps it and interprets that more casual but still very real justice as right or wrong. There are plenty of times that the guilty, such as they are, remain unpunished or that the formal justice system is itself unjust.

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I am biased in this matter and shall graciously step aside.

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gustavratzenhofer wrote:

I am biased in this matter and shall graciously step aside.

Don't step aside Gus!

Argue rationally from your intense feelings.

Please?

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i understand gus, and hope i haven't offended...

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One of my situations involved a student who was attending the school in Virginia where I taught. He was on probation in Delaware and moved To Virginia to live with his father.

I wanted to help him, so I individualized instruction. One day, for no apparent reason, he became very angry and got up to leave the classroom. It took me by surprise and I moved to stop him, because I knew, should he take that action, he would be in trouble. He didn't walk around me, he almost walked through me.

The principal expelled him. I tried my best to talk the principal out of such an action, as I could see no purpose would be served. Didn't work, so I took it upon myself to visit the home on a weekend. We had parent visitation at that time.

I went with another teacher waaaaayyyyy back up in the hills and I mean way back, dogs literally snapping at our heels.

When we went inside the young man's "home" (more of a hovel), his dad was there, and when I explained the situation, the ex con looked at me and said, "So, you're the teacher that Gary almost slapped." All the father did was talk about how terrible prison was, etc, etc. Since Gary wasn't there, we left and called it a day.

Within a week, Gary killed someone.

I went to the principal's office in tears, and tried to make him understand that expelling Gary had been the wrong approach. He simply said, "Ms Letty, you have to quit getting so emotionally involved with your students."

I had to think a long time, because I was ready at that time to turn in my "badge".

I have never...and I mean never forgotten that incident.

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gustavratzenhofer wrote:

I am biased in this matter and shall graciously step aside.

No... no... I'm with you Gus.

Definitely I would tell a friend who was dating someone who was HIV Positive and I would sure want my friend to tell me. It doesn't mean that you wouldn't remain friendly with the potential date, but many people weren't upfront about that.

In this state it is now a law that you must tell... with severe punishment if you don't and are found out. We've had some people who seem to go a little crazy and are so angry at the world that they've tried to infect as many as possible. It is really sad.

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Piffka wrote:

Uhm... but what is the adherence to the law from Deb's perspective? That she'd already given him the standard warning and didn't need to repeat it? OR that she was bound, since she believed he had forgotten that, to reissue the warning?

I think that justice is in the hands of individuals, btw, and that the Law, such as it is, occasionally steps it and interprets that more casual but still very real justice as right or wrong. There are plenty of times that the guilty, such as they are, remain unpunished or that the formal justice system is itself unjust.

I don't think the law would especially have involved itself in the matter, Piffka - except if the defence tried to say that the "confession" was somehow tainted because he had not been warned - if they tried to say I had not warned him. It is hard to say. I don't think there is law on such here - but ethics. There will be law if such a case comes to trial, and a judgment on such an ethical matter comes down - like the "fruit of the poisoned tree" stuff about illegal searches in the USA.

Had he confessed, I would have worked with him to see if he might come to a decision to confess to the police for himself first - and given him time to consider it - while I got a legal opinion re the material I had and my duties around it!!!!

This sort of stuff is just part of the wonderful warp and weft of social work in Corrections - the dual role stuff - officer of the court and/or therapist. Truth and Transparency and the doing of the best one can in the juggle is all that one can do.

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Letty wrote:

One of my situations involved a student who was attending the school in Virginia where I taught. He was on probation in Delaware and moved To Virginia to live with his father.

I wanted to help him, so I individualized instruction. One day, for no apparent reason, he became very angry and got up to leave the classroom. It took me by surprise and I moved to stop him, because I knew, should he take that action, he would be in trouble. He didn't walk around me, he almost walked through me.

The principal expelled him. I tried my best to talk the principal out of such an action, as I could see no purpose would be served. Didn't work, so I took it upon myself to visit the home on a weekend. We had parent visitation at that time.

I went with another teacher waaaaayyyyy back up in the hills and I mean way back, dogs literally snapping at our heels.

When we went inside the young man's "home" (more of a hovel), his dad was there, and when I explained the situation, the ex con looked at me and said, "So, you're the teacher that Gary almost slapped." All the father did was talk about how terrible prison was, etc, etc. Since Gary wasn't there, we left and called it a day.

Within a week, Gary killed someone.

I went to the principal's office in tears, and tried to make him understand that expelling Gary had been the wrong approach. He simply said, "Ms Letty, you have to quit getting so emotionally involved with your students."

I had to think a long time, because I was ready at that time to turn in my "badge".

I have never...and I mean never forgotten that incident.

Thinking about that one, Letty...........

You know - I suspect the walking out thing was a symptom of him decompensating in some way - the expulsion might well have been immaterial.

But - who will know?

You gave him a good shot to move up...

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Willow I WOULD tell without hesitation - unless I knew from my professional role about the HIV.

Then I would be in a dilemma!!!!!

In the example, is there a professional role?

I am very happy about the state that has made such disclosure a duty!!!!

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willow_tl wrote:

In the mid 80's when AIDS first hit the midwest..i was attending church @ MCC which ministers openly to Gay & Lesbians..one night we were all out at the bar talking, when someone brought up the question..if you knew someone had the virus, and you saw them dating a friend of yours ..would you tell your friend that that person was HIV infected...at the time a bunch of our friends were dropping like flies...and the discussion became very heated...

what would you do?

If I could diverge a bit on a similar topic...

I can relate a story from someone we knew. He was our first veterinarian. He was an older man, and gay, who had a younger partner who worked at the reception area. The doctor was diagnosed with AIDS, full-blown. He decided to commit suicide in his clinic by injecting himself with the drugs they use to put pets to sleep. I can only imagine how agonizing and personal that decision was. His partner found him the next morning in the clinic, and wondered why he didn't seek experimental treatment, as it would have been easy to get, as he had contacts in the medical community here.

Why did he choose suicide? The clinic was passed on to another vet, who was terrible. The partner was too shaken up to work anymore. The ethical dilemma, should he have tried to live as long as he could, given that he was a great vet, and had a lot to offer, or was his decision the right one? He put animals down every day....I wonder how that influenced his decision, and how he saw himself.

It was a horrible day for us, as we only found out when we needed to take our dog in for his regular checkup. The events happened several months prior to that.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, this is a true story, without any subtlety, inference or puns. We still miss the man terribly.

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But Willow - such a case may well be covered under "duty to warn" for professionals.

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Interesting too, Cav - and how sad!!!!

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willow_tl wrote:

In the mid 80's when AIDS first hit the midwest..i was attending church @ MCC which ministers openly to Gay & Lesbians..one night we were all out at the bar talking, when someone brought up the question..if you knew someone had the virus, and you saw them dating a friend of yours ..would you tell your friend that that person was HIV infected...at the time a bunch of our friends were dropping like flies...and the discussion became very heated...

what would you do?

Do you have any obligation to the HIV+ person (for convenience, let's call him "Harvey")? If not, then the dilemma is easily solved: tell your friend. This would be analogous to a situation where your friend was standing in the path of a speeding car. Since you have no competing obligation to the owner of the car, there is nothing that would outweigh your duty to warn your friend of the imminent danger.

On the other hand, if Harvey had told you, in the strictest confidence, that he was HIV+, then your duty is far less clear. In that event, you would have an obligation both to keep Harvey's status secret and to reveal that information to your friend.

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She knows she has a dilemma Joe!

What would YOU do?

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I thought joe's position was pretty clear. He just thinks like a lawyer, imagine that. Wink

An Actual Ethical Dilemma Thread???

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