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An Actual Ethical Dilemma Thread???

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 09:27 am
cavfancier wrote:
I thought joe's position was pretty clear. He just thinks like a lawyer, imagine that. Wink

You realize, of course, that I will be sending a bill for my services to everyone who participates in this thread.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 09:30 am
Lol - so ASK Willow, Joe!!!
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 09:31 am
You realise that, in this thread, YOU get to be on the spot too, Joe - you are not just the usual lofty interlocutor and critic that you get to be on your own threads!
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 09:33 am
joefromchicago wrote:
cavfancier wrote:
I thought joe's position was pretty clear. He just thinks like a lawyer, imagine that. Wink

You realize, of course, that I will be sending a bill for my services to everyone who participates in this thread.


I suppose we'll be in litigation for years then. My lawyer can beat up your lawyer. Laughing
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 09:35 am
Cav - your dilemma is to be approached as though we ar ethe vet - deciding to die, or not - and assuming he is thinking rationally, no?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 09:37 am
Meanwhile - my hutch is beckoning.

Good night!
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willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 09:38 am
joefromchicago wrote:
dlowan wrote:
She knows she has a dilemma Joe!

What would YOU do?

Get more information from Willow about the situation.


at the time joe, i was also a LPN working with AIDS pts...and felt from a professional stand point that i could not divulge the persons hiv status...
However, in the bar i said that YES i would tell my friend, because at that time it really was LIFE/or DEATH...the treatments are better now than in 1985, and my friends are LIVING with hiv ...the point was brought out that everyone has a personal responsiblity to protect themselves...I would make sure that my friend(s) had every bit of literature on the virus, and how to protect themselves...

at that time in KC as well, before i left the hospital to work at the hospice, some nurses refused to enter a room of an AIDS pt...this was also the time when our president couldn't even say the word AIDS...and funding was non-existant...don't really know what this information has to do with the dilema..just a little background of the times...some were so afraid to say they had the virus for fear of rejection ....and the gay/lesbian community was the only people willing to care for them...so outing them was a difficult decision...
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 09:38 am
I really don't think he was thinking rationally, but that's just my opinion. What he carried in his heart is probably a very complex question. I would not have made that decision, in his shoes.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 09:43 am
Yes - but for the purpose of the discussion?
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 09:50 am
For the purpose of the discussion, living with AIDS, knowing it will be fatal, do you choose suicide, or the fight to live? Would you support euthanasia? Would you try to wait it out and see what the research comes up with?

Dilemma: fatal illness, the medical community wants to help you, but they cannot cure you, as of yet. So, what shall it be, a few more years of suffering, or perhaps control, or perhaps new treatments, or to give up entirely?
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 09:55 am
I think that anytime someone commits suicide, they are leaving serious problems for other people to clear up. I can see that the Vet would be in despair and (since it sounds like this was early in the AIDS crisis) probably felt that his clients would shun him. Really a sad situation, but no good could come from suicide.

Having said that, I can report that I traveled for the last two weeks in Oregon, one of the few states that allows suicide. Two or three times I found myself saying this is where I wouldn't mind dying. One was in some Japanese Gardens and another was in the Redwoods (just south of the Oregon border in California). It was a strange thought for me to have but oddly comforting.


Letty, I agree that there was likely something going on in your student's life that contributed to his aggression with you, rather than that the expulsion created so much anger that it led him to the murder. It must have been awful for you, but sometimes you can't help people no matter how clearly you can see that they're going down.

I had a much less serious dilemma recently which I have mulled over and not come to any conclusion except I did the right thing and it turned out wrong.

We were staying in a lodge that offered fine dining. When I checked out, I noticed that they didn't have our dinner listed on the account. I pointed out that error and that started a scurrying of clerical activity. I had the dinner receipt and it was added to the bill (costly but honest), however my receipt also showed who had made the mistake. There was an angry murmur against "Steve" who had failed to give the lodge their due. In my rush to be honest I had contributed a black mark on his name and likely created a situation where he might lose his job. I felt awful.

Was it worth it to feel personally ethical by paying for that meal when it may have resulted in the loss of someone's job? This has happened to me before and it always makes me uncomfortable. I want to be honest but I don't want to hurt another.
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willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 10:04 am
I don't know the time frame of your scenario Cav, but at the beginning in KC the "cure" was worse than the desease..persoanlly i would choose to end my life if the quality wasn't what i expected...now i have friends who are living 19 years full blown..but medications are much better ....to me Lou Gehrigs desease would be harder to deal with..or terminal cancer...I would definitely choose euthanasia.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 10:04 am
dlowan wrote:
You realise that, in this thread, YOU get to be on the spot too, Joe - you are not just the usual lofty interlocutor and critic that you get to be on your own threads!

Very true. I take on the role of lofty interlocutor on my own threads because I don't want people to view them as the kind of "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" polemics that one frequently sees on the Politics forum. My function is to facilitate discussion, not dominate it. On threads that I don't initiate, however, I'm perfectly comfortable with giving my own opinions, as I have done here.

willow_tl: If, in the situation that you described, you had learned of HIV+ Harvey's status in confidence (e.g. as part of your professional duties), then you had an overriding obligation to maintain that confidence. To give an analogous situation: suppose a priest learns, through a penitent's confession, of a crime that will soon be committed. Had the priest learned this information in any other way, then his duty would have been clear: report the information to the police or to the potential victim of the crime. Learning it in the confessional, however, imposes an ethical obligation upon him to maintain that secret.

In the same respect, if you are obligated, pursuant to your professional standards and code of ethics, to maintain these types of confidences, then you have an obligation that overrides your obligation to your friend. That does not mean, however, that you are forced to stand to one side and do nothing. In that situation, I would confront Harvey, tell him that he is engaging in risky behavior, and urge him either to stop or to inform my friend himself that he is HIV+.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 10:09 am
willow_tl wrote:
I don't know the time frame of your scenario Cav, but at the beginning in KC the "cure" was worse than the desease..persoanlly i would choose to end my life if the quality wasn't what i expected...now i have friends who are living 19 years full blown..but medications are much better ....to me Lou Gehrigs desease would be harder to deal with..or terminal cancer...I would definitely choose euthanasia.


The time frame would have been just about three years ago, to give some perspective on the ethical issue.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 11:01 am
I am guessing that I can add some background to piffka's dilemma about being honest. I think I was at that dinner, as she and her husband visited me recently and stayed in such an inn, and we all had a wonderful dinner, which ended up with them picking up the check, for which I am grateful.

I remember the waiter, and know the owner of the inn somewhat, though not well enough to call him up to chat about this.

- the waiter, if it was the waiter who failed to report the item on the piffka family hotel bill, generally behaved very professionally. We stayed a long time, talking and talking, long past other customers leaving. He paid good attention to us, and was nice to me, who kept needing extra candles and to have the specials repeated.

- the hotel is a good one, but probably not raking in the dough, as this city at the best of times isn't overrun with visitors. No trouble to get room at the inn, there's unually plenty of room.. I think the dollar bottom line may matter there - the food is of high quality, and the chef's and others time cost money.

- my hope is that one error like this is not grounds for letting the waiter go; it might or might not be. Having the customer be honest may make it just a warning mistake instead of a complete financial loss if it was deciphered on later attention.

- excellent waiters are a jewel in this city, and need appreciating...
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paulaj
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 11:17 am
Letty wrote:
One of my situations involved a student who was attending the school in Virginia where I taught. He was on probation in Delaware and moved To Virginia to live with his father.

I wanted to help him, so I individualized instruction.


May I ask how his instruction differed from the other students?
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 11:29 am
ossobuco wrote:
I am guessing that I can add some background to piffka's dilemma about being honest. I think I was at that dinner, as she and her husband visited me recently and stayed in such an inn, and we all had a wonderful dinner, which ended up with them picking up the check, for which I am grateful.

I remember the waiter, and know the owner of the inn somewhat, though not well enough to call him up to chat about this.

- the waiter, if it was the waiter who failed to report the item on the piffka family hotel bill, generally behaved very professionally. We stayed a long time, talking and talking, long past other customers leaving. He paid good attention to us, and was nice to me, who kept needing extra candles and to have the specials repeated.

- the hotel is a good one, but probably not raking in the dough, as this city at the best of times isn't overrun with visitors. No trouble to get room at the inn, there's unually plenty of room.. I think the dollar bottom line may matter there - the food is of high quality, and the chef's and others time cost money.

- my hope is that one error like this is not grounds for letting the waiter go; it might or might not be. Having the customer be honest may make it just a warning mistake instead of a complete financial loss if it was deciphered on later attention.

- excellent waiters are a jewel in this city, and need appreciating...


Hi, Osso... and thanks... that was a great dinner, wasn't it?

As it happened though, my dilemma was at the Crater Lake Lodge where a large corporation runs the place and it is filled every night both with overnight guests and a full dining room to the point that reservations are necessary or you won't get to eat. However, our waiter was excellent and attentive despite being very busy. I'm sure it was an oversight on his part but it seemed from the discussion I heard on the other side of the desk that this situation had happened before. <sigh> Perhaps if he loses his job, which he would anyway as the lodge closes for the winter, he'll move down your way.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 11:47 am
Aha! It did occur to me I might be wrong. I'm glad that nice waiter here won't be sacked...

and the waiter from Crater Lake would be an asset here..

Still, do the large pockets or small pockets of the owner(s) rightfully affect behavior, if they do? I don't mean yours or mine in particular, but anyone's behavior.
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paulaj
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 11:47 am
dlowan wrote:
Quote:


Thinking about that one, Letty...........

You know - I suspect the walking out thing was a symptom of him decompensating in some way - the expulsion might well have been immaterial....


dlowan

Could you explain what decompensating is.
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Oct, 2004 11:50 am
ossobuco wrote:
Aha! It did occur to me I might be wrong. I'm glad that nice waiter here won't be sacked...

and the waiter from Crater Lake would be an asset here..

Still, do the large pockets or small pockets of the owner(s) rightfully affect behavior, if they do? I don't mean yours or mine in particular, but anyone's behavior.


That's part of the dilemma and the other is whether there is true wisdom in pointing out other's mistakes.
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