How much of Support for Israel is based on Biblical Mythology?

@maxdancona,

I understand . OK

@ehBeth,

Quote:

The end-timers are one odd group. I have a bunch in my FB friends that got in through an evangelical A2ker. I always feel like putting a tinfoil helmet on when I read their stuff.

The tinfoil helmet can protect you from the signals the aliens are beaming into your brain, but it won't protect you from GOD.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Earlier you acknowledged that Israel offered reasonable terms of peace, one time. Now you are saying never. Which is it?

Finn, I thought I was clear. The one time that the Israeli leadership was ready to make a real attempt at a fair peace, it was under the government of Yitzhak Rabin. Rabin was shot by a a member of the Jewish hardliners who were horrified at the idea of living next to a sovereign Palestinian state of the type we are discussing.

The murder of Rabin was remarkably successful. The Israeli extreme right wing successfully shut down any chance for the type of Peace plan that Rabin was promoting. Since the assassination, the country has been led by the political forces opposing Rabin.

Quote:

They will also have to give up the Right of Return and their claim for the whole of Jerusalem. Neither it seems to me is anywhere near important enough to prevent them from gaining an independent sovereign state so I return to my conclusion that their leaders don't actually want one.

We agree about the need for the Palestinians to compromise. And we agree that their refusal to pre-emptively recognize Israel's right to exist is both morally wrong, and a political mistake.

We also agree that a two-State solution will necessarily involve the Palestinians giving up the Right of Return and their claim for the whole of Jerusalem.

You are correct on both of these points.

Quote:

If the rest of the world stopped interfering with the process, there would be a settlement within 12 months. It might not be entirely "fair" for the Palestinians, but that isn't driving the interference. We only need to observe the world's apathy concerning much worse situations to realize this is true.

The Palestinians can have peace and their own nation, but they continue to block all chances of it with their demands and their conduct. It is all on them.

This is an interesting argument for you to make.

I am an American. I am upset with the role that the American government is taking in propping up the Israeli hardliners.

It is my opinion that if the American government could tell both sides to accept the 1967 borders (with a few adjustments), then it would happen. It would mean the US putting pressure on both sides to be reasonable. We would use our leverage over the Palestinians... and we would also use our leverage over Israel (based on the billions of dollars of military aid and financial support we give them).

It is also my opnion that the problem is primarily that Evangelical Christians in the US, who view the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in Biblical terms. These religious views impact our culture. As Oralloy has so clearly stated, too many Americans see this in religious black and white terms where "Israel is always the good guys" and "Palestinians are always the bad guys".

The US can not support peace in the Middle East if a significant part of the electorate continues to think this way. It make it politically unfeasable to do what is right if some day (hypothetically speaking of course) we need to pressure Israel to stop doing something wrong (this is sarcasm for the sarcasm impaired).

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@maxdancona,

I thought you were clear too until your last post. So you acknowledge that at least one time, Israel offered a fair deal? The fact that Rabin was killed is tragic but immaterial to this discussion. The notion that opposition to an Israeli "hardline" position is predicated upon the fear of assassination is absurd and actually encourages such evil.

The US has virtually no influence on the Palestinians and that has been proven time and time again. If we can't influence both sides, we need to retire.

Evangelical Christians supporting Israel is part of the pro-Israel coalition, but by no means the driving force. This is your bigotry against Christians getting the best of you.

The US, and the rest of the world, needs to back out of this dispute. Without them it can be solved.

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http://www.nationalreview.com/article/443523/anti-israel-obama-administration-follows-world-lead-middle-east-politics?utm_source=nr&utm_campaign=israel-sentiment&utm_medium=facebook&utm_content=hanson

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http://www.nationalreview.com/article/434730/leftist-anti-semitism?target=topic&tid=

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I can answer that Foofie.

My belief is that Jews and Arabs are equal. They have equal rights to peace. Equal rights to dignity. And equal rights to the land they have been living in for generations.

If you accept this as well, then we have a starting point for a discussion. If you believe that Arabs aren't just as important as Jews (or Africans, or Nordic people or Native Americans), then we have a basic disagreement.

Saything that Arabs and Jews have the same rights as human beings is not antisemitism. My belief that neither Jews or Arabs are superior, and that neither is loved by God any more or less, isn't antisemitism either.

It seems backwards if the idea that one race is superior to others is acceptable, and to claim that all races are equal is "antisemitism".

You might not be aware that after the 1957 war, the Arab countries kicked their Jewish communities right out of their countries, and into Israel. Overnight Israel became almost 50% Sephardic Jews. Jews that had lived in these countries oftentimes for the last 3,000 years. So, many folks of European descent think of Israelis as just Ashkenazi Jews that are the decendants of the Displaced Persons (aka, Holocaust Survivors) of WWII. And, naturally, these Sephardic Jews came with the clothes on their backs, like the Cubans leaving Cuba in 1959.

Anyway, Arab nations today promulgate the same pejoratives that Nazi Germany did. Look up what percent of the Arab street believes in the Protocols. So, if anyone is subscribing to the belief in superiority, it is not the Israelis. By the way, Jews do not claim Christians are polytheistic by virtue of the Trinity. Nor do they claim any Old Testament prophet is the last prophet. Nor are Arab Israelis excluded from the country based on their religion (know any Jews living in Arab lands?).

Regardless, the title of this thread seems to be looking for a rationale, in my opinion, to de-legitamize Israel as a Zionist state, disregarding all the secular reasons that includes WWII, Russian pogroms, not to mention the double dealing British, regarding the British Mandate.

If you are so concerned about humanity, you might ask yourself why we don't see threads on this forum chastizing the world for turning their respective backs on the Syrian refugee families with suffering children. That might be of more importance during this cold winter. Hear any laments? I fear not.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

These partisan ad hominem arguments are dumb, whether they come from the left or from the right.

You will never hear me say that people voted for Trump because they are sexist and don't want to vote for a woman candidate. Yes, there are plenty of liberals who make this type of argument. But I am on record as saying that this is bogus.

You will never hear me say that people oppose Obamacare because they are racist. Again, there are people who make this argument. Again, I will gladly tell them that this is a ridiculous argument to make against Obamacare.

So you might just understand why; when you make this same argument; that opposition to settlements by Israel in the disputed territories is "antisemitism", it is just as bogus.

I could point out liberal opposition to plenty of governments of countries that prosecute minorities, from Chile to Burma to Apartheid South Africa.

But I won't bother. I think you already understand that this type of ad hominem attack has no intellectual validity no matter what side of the political spectrum it comes from.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
I am not aware of any bad behavior on Israel's part.

I have heard accusations against Israel. In every case, the accusations have been untrue.

This is the point that I am making. You can find any list of things that Israel has done that are clearly wrong by the values of any modern democracy. This includes bulldozing the houses of the families of criminals and breaking the Geneva convention on refugees.

You can see any number of lists from unbiased sources of what Israel has done wrong. The problem is that any criticism of Israel is labeled as "antisemitism" by Israel and its religious critics.

Of course Palistinians have done bad things too (as is often the case in war both sides do atrocities), and the Palestinian leadership has been atrocious.

Whether Israel tried to offer the Palestinians a reasonable state is a matter of opinion. As I understand it, there are three big issues.

1) Whether the state being offered will truly be sovreign.
2) Whether the state being offered is economically viable and contiguous.
3) Whether there is a fair compromise on the "right of return" (which is the right os Palestinians but will need to be forfeited in any realistic settlement) and the status of Jerusalem.

It doesn't sound like you are open to a two-sided discussion about whether Israel has met these conditions. A two-sided discussion would mean that you would look at both sides with an open mind and consider the Palestinian point of view as well as the Israeli one.

As long as you keep saying "Israel is always right" and the "Palestinians are always wrong", then you can't have an open mind about this.

I am impressed that you have stated unequivocably that Palestinians have the same human rights that Israelis have. That is a step in the right direction... and not everyone on your side of the debate would be willing to state this.

So, you do see both sides. How magnanimous of you. Yet, you only chastize Israel? I guess you think Jews must have a higher moral code? As long as we cannot expect the Arabs to be held to the same moral code as Israel, I would think the middle east becomes a zero sum game and one might accept the reality that it is absurd to expect only one side to have a moral compass.

There may never be a peace deal, since any Arab leader might always fear for his life, if he accepts Israel's continued existence, by virtue of a peace deal. For that alone is may always be a zero sum game. But, don't let that deter you from continuing to sing the praises of progressive thinking.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
It wasn't God that gave Israel to the Jews, it was the United Nations.

That is rather ironic given the fact the latest uproar was a United Nations resolution.

Apparently the UN still wants to give the Palestinians a state too.

God gave the United Nations to Manhattan. Jews gave Manhattan to the Real Estate brokers.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

The right of people displaced by violence to return to previous residences is named in the Fourth Geneva Convention. Is that enough for you Finn?

I am looking for common ground here Finn.

I disagree with the narrative that Israel has offered a fair compromise. There was exactly one Israeli leader who tried to offer a fair compromise to end the Israel/Palestine conflict.. They shot him.

This is one of the times when a political assassination was wildly successful, the chance for peace died with Yitzhak Rabin. Israel has not even attempted since.

Israel exists since the Displaced Persons (aka, Holocaust Survivors) had no right of return after WWII, based on actual murders of those that tried to return, and their previous residences were already occupied. You see, immoral behavior begets what it sows. Who first said that?

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Israel is an important partner in the Empire's hegemonic control of the ME. Israel's military aid is spent on American hardware. It's all to do with dominating and subjugating an entire region and propping up the American defence industry.

Not propping up, but making a better bottom line profit, perhaps. And that just reflects that American WASPs know how to make money after that tea party in Boston a few centuries ago. If you can love your Royals, Americans can love their wealthy WASPs. We don't own forests in Canada as the Crown does.

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@trevorw2539,

Hear, hear!!!

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

maxdancona wrote:
In the United States (as in many democracies) we now give multiple ethnic groups equal rights and citizenship. This includes the descendents of indigenous people.

Only a white American could believe such self-serving sanctimonious horseshit.

We don't call Pakistanis, "Pakis," as a pejorative adhominem. The vast majority of the younger, college educated folk believe in exactly what was stated by maxdancona above. Yes, Victoria there is a Santa Claus and a U.S.A.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I don't believe very many American Christians have attended Hebrew School. My original post was clearly about the beliefs of American Christians.

Which shows you how the popular culture of Christian America demonizes Jews to having a superiority complex, based on the misinterpreted phrase of being God's chosen people. And this is the world that you think Israel should feel comfortable with. LOL.

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@maxdancona,

When did I engage in an ad hominem attack?

Liberal opposition to "bad" states has always been based on ideology, not the facts of what were going down.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

By the way, I love the fact that I am interacting with Oralloy and Izzy on the same thread.

They are really the same person... just on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

Hold on here. When is the last time I launched a horrific ad hominem attack against you?

All I do is politely state facts that you are very uncomfortable confronting.

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@trevorw2539,

trevorw2539 wrote:

Sorry. Not sure how to enclose quotes on here.

Go to your preferences page:

http://able2know.org/account/preferences/

Set "Show quote button:" to Yes.

Set the other preferences according to your tastes while you're at it.

Click the big green "Update Preferences" button at the bottom.

By the way, welcome to a2k!

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Oralloy is always right and never concedes a single point, so there is no point in arguing with him.

I'm not quite as infallible as you say. But if you recognize the futility of arguing with the facts that I present, why not use my posts as an opportunity to learn about the truth?

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@trevorw2539,

trevorw2539 wrote:

I understand . OK

I'll try putting my main answer to your post on the thread that Max wishes the discussion to be on.

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How much of Support for Israel is based on Biblical Mythology?

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