Women & Discrimination

I used to sell cameras at an upscale place in the mall. . . . . I knew my stuff better than the manager and I repeatedly had customers walk right past me to one of the less experienced guys at the counter. I don't think work place discrimination only comes from with in the work place. i'm now receiving a fellowship to do research in one of the Tech affiliated labs and I can't tell you how many times I've had my boss say stuff like well stop acting like a girl. . . . I know he thinks its funny but its hard enough getting an equal footing in a male dominated work place without having your boss say that kind of stuff.

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I hear you, midnight. Been there, done that. There has been progress, but the crap still comes around with regularity. No pun intended. Hang in there. Your next experience might well be very different. And help others who are experiencing the same despondency and troubles.

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Since most women aren't as physically strong as men, let the women do all the jobs requiring mental strength and the men can do the physical things.

Incidentally, does anyone know how hard it's been for women physicians to gain any headway into surgery? ( especially short women!)

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Since most women aren't as physically strong as men, let the women do all the jobs requiring mental strength and the men can do the physical things.

Incidentally, does anyone know how hard it's been for women physicians to gain any headway into surgery? ( especially short women!)

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New Haven wrote:

Since most women aren't as physically strong as men, let the women do all the jobs requiring mental strength and the men can do the physical things.

Or, we could just IGNORE gender, ethnicity, religion and sexual orientation and just consider each individual's abilities. Can this person do this job? Period.

Of course, if we do that all the people who make their living and garner their power from keeping us focused on issues like gender and race would have to look for something else to do with their talents...

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Law School statistics show that there are more women in law schools today then men.'

However, the proportion of women partners in the top two hundred law firms of the country does not reflect that statistic.

Why?

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Italgato wrote:

Law School statistics show that there are more women in law schools today then men.'

However, the proportion of women partners in the top two hundred law firms of the country does not reflect that statistic.

Why?

Well, there are a couple of very real possibilities, and I suspect they are each at play here to varying degrees:

1) Bias. Women are not being promoted to partner based on their gender. (This option assumes that a law firm dedicated to making a lot of money would decide to promote a lesser qualified man over a better qualified woman--a decision we would predict would have a negative impact on the firm's bottom line.)

2) Time. While there are more women in law school today than men, there were not more women than men who were lawyers 10 years ago. Those who have reached the position of partner today must reasonably have had some time in practice to get there. As time goes on the percentage of women in partnership positions should increase (call it a "lagging curve"), assuming women make equally capable lawyers as do men.

3) Ability. On average, women may not make as good lawyers as do men. (This is not a likely reason, but it is a possible one.)

=================

All in all I'm inclined to think #2 is the most common reason for the disparity you cite.

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A relavant article in today's San Jose Mercury News, Business Section, titled "Women hold half of senior positions, lag in pay." Essentially, it says that six percent of women earn at least $75,000 a year compared to 16 percent of men earning that income. Just goes to show gender discrimination is alive and well. c.i.

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will wrote: "Or, we could just IGNORE gender, ethnicity, religion and sexual orientation and just consider each individual's abilities. ....... Of course, if we do that all the people who make their living and garner their power from keeping us focused on issues like gender and race would have to look for something else to do with their talents..."

Talents ?

Seriously, it does not have to be all that complicated. Differences exist. If we approach them with interest and appreciation rather than with fear and defensiveness, prejudice and bigotry would be in the toilet, where they belong.

(I apologize for the rather crude reference, but it seemed appropriate.)

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cicerone imposter wrote:

A relavant article in today's San Jose Mercury News, Business Section, titled "Women hold half of senior positions, lag in pay." Essentially, it says that six percent of women earn at least $75,000 a year compared to 16 percent of men earning that income. Just goes to show gender discrimination is alive and well. c.i.

No, it just shows how numbers can be used to paint any picture you desire.

The fact is (check for yourself) that women take more time off with pay than men, and recent studies have shown that when you factor TIME WORKED into the equation, women's pay is generally right in line with men's.

Quote:

The Independent Women's Forum boasts on its website, "For years IWF has been combatting (sic) myths about women's economic opportunities. One of the most persistent has been the claim that women earn only 76 cents on the male dollar. But, as the work of IWF's Women's Economic Project and its publications such as Women's Figures reveal, this is a deliberately misleading claim that fails to account for a number of commonsense facts about women's workplace experiences. Women actually earn 98 cents on the dollar when factors such as age, education, and experience are taken into account."
Women's Pay & Labor Day (PBS)

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hm, but then I would insist that domestic work is included in the calculation of 'time worked': raising children, cleaning, cooking. for i believe it is not there, or is it?

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I am very much afraid that "trespassers will" may have to search for other reasons that more women are not being promoted to partner in the large and most prestigious law firms.

A review of the number and gender of "associates" in those law firms for the last ten years will show clearly that women who came on as associates in the years from 1990-1995 clearly did not make partner at anywhere near the percentage that men did.

Some of the women, it has been reported wanted to be on the "mommy track" and still be considered as partners in those large law firms. Inasmuch as the expectation of billing in the 2,000 to 2,500 hour range is clear in most of those firms(that amount of billing would take at least 3,000 hours or 60 hours at week except for all but the most efficient) it is the very rare female who has the talents to be accepted and retained as partner while on the mommy track. There are some, of course, but most find it is very difficult, if not impossible.

The "lagging curve" is clearly not operative here.

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The actual differences between men and women come from two sources; physical differences (biology), and environmentally induced differences (nurture).

In today's society where technology largely equalizes the variations in "physical prowess" between humans the "size/strength" discrepancy should be of minimal importance. Conversely the "maternity" aspect is still a long way from being "melted" into societal mechanisms which will, one day, equalize the parenting load by spreading responsibility for raising children over the entire population in an - equal share based upon abilities - system.

The primary schizm of gender based equality comes from the myrad traditions and institutions in society which are paternally designed and applied, and reinforced by existing educational practices. Only after these primitive methods of guiding the progress of cultural development are abandonned, will the fact that there are no actual potentiality differences between the sexes become fully apparent, and reflected in suitable law and regulation.

As with most problems in society the traditions, which steal the incentive to think from our leadership, damn us to continue demeaning each other.

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I hope one of you has picked up a book titled
"The Bitch In The House" which is about exactly
what has happened to the female of the species.
Which, of course is nothing remotely related to
equality - not in jobs, not in salary.....AND if you
can believe it or not, not even equality in the
world of medical treatment. I just had a incident
of medical maltreatment where the surgeon AND
the GI specialist AND the hospital ER doctor; ALL
HAVE LIED TO ME ABOUT A SERIOUS MEDICAL
CONDITION THAT I HAVE!! My daughters' husband
is a trauma nurse in Atlanta...and when he recently
found out the way his mother was treated in the ER
of their local hospital, he was LIVID!! He said they
would NEVER treat a man that way. And he also
advised me that I was so badly medically mistreated
that I seriously need an attorney. Nothing's changed.
We are just worse off than we were before. The
backlash to women's bid for equality, began before
the womens' movement even got seriously underway.
Ain't life grand?
NOW, EVERYBODY KNOWS that statistics can be
colored, painted used and distorted to show ANYTHING
that your little heart desires, so for those of you
who are rallying around "statistics" just remember
they reflect whatever the government WANTS them
to reflect. Kind of like how the prison systems have
been painting such a rosy picture about how few
escapes have occurred in the past 5-10 years. In fact,
the largest number of escapes occur when the prisoners
are in the "half in and half out work program". Guess
what they do? They disappear for ONE day & then they
promptly return to the halfway house, assured that they
will be comfortably back in prison before the day is over.
This minimal "escape" just adds a few more years to
their sentence. So, what is this telling us???? That our
prison system is so great, no escapes happen? NO, our
prison system is so great, people are dying to get back
in. No prisoner in his right mind wants to live in a halfway
house and HAVE TO WORK FOR A LIVING! So much
for your statistics.

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Honestly I never experienced discrimination because Im a female! Actually most of my friends are guys and im like the fonze! Here's what you do, make threats, spit, drink beer, punch hard, wear makeup and show cleavage, as well as tell funny man jokes, burp loud, talk about breasts and how funny they look, dont whine, dont nag, dont take things personal, smile and nod and say im gonna kick your ass! Also wrestle with a few of your man workers or man friends, relax and intrude on the conversation. Be confident, that is the most important because men like to pick on not so confident women. Be intrusive, be aggressive, be sarcastic and witty, also lay everything out on the table and dont hold back anything and therefore, you will find it easy to co exist and be a shark in a man's world!

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Red that only 'works' if that is the way you 'wish' to behave, as opposed to a 'stance' which allows you to survive in an inhospitable environment!

I hope for your sake, it is the former. Laughing

What i am saying is:
Don't ever behave in a way you don't want to,
because you feel you have to!
If the 'guys' you hang with expect you to be 'a certain way'
find new guys!

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Since most of the men I spend time with are not intrusive, aggressive or sarcastic, they would not want to be around me if I was being those things. Be yourself, and you'll find yourself in a good situation with good people. There are, of course, exceptions to that, but I've lived just about half a century working with that guideline, and it's done well for me.
Treating others with the respect they have earned has resulted in me being treated with the respect I have earned. I have occasionally been assertive in helping others 'see' the respect I deserve, but those instances have been few and far between.

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During my life, I've observed too often that women and minorities always got the short end of the stick. When Florsheim Shoe Company promoted me to Audit Manager, I was the first for the company to hire a woman auditor. I think I was the first Asian to work in management for the company. Anyhoose, I've always been cognizent of the abilities and skills of women and minorities, and made every effort to take advantage of their skills. In all my years as a voter, I've often voted for the female candidate when the choices I saw on the ballot had unrecognizable names. My physician today is a Indian (Asian) Doctor, and I rate her one of the best I've ever had in my life. My dentist is a Spanish sur-named woman. I rate her above average in skill over the many men dentists I've had. So my life goes on, trying to promote women and minorities whenever I can. And you know what? I'm the beneficiary of better medical care and service. Even Senator Diane Feinstein answers my emails, whereas, GWBush makes it difficult to reach him. That about says it all. Wink

c.i.

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how interesting - you managed to kill TWO birds with
only one stone .... you get a credit for hiring an asian
AND a female at the same time. That is precisely the
kind of thinking and acting that causes such grief for
women - being quota fillers. Whatever happened to
being promoted due to the all around qualities of being
the very best person for the job, regardless of sex,
race, color, religion and yada yada yada

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babs, c.i., who is Asian, hired a woman, whose race wasn't mentioned.

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