I agree with you mporter that there are more differences, but those differences should not mean any different treatment nor they mean that any sex has its "role".
I said that I disagree with women competing in male teams (when female teams available) only because I see it as another kind of discrimination, only this time against males (because nobody would ever consider allowing male playing in WNBA).
But Phoenix is completely right that generally statistic may be correct, but don't say anything about individuals. To make banal example it's much more ordinary to see male truck driver, but that does not mean female cannot be successfull one. If that's her choice.
Phoenix32890- Let me be specific-
Studies such as those on Fetal Testosterone and Eye Contact in 12 month old human infants whose fetal testosterone levels were measured in the first trimester and then subsequently were tested for amount of eye contact as a 12 month old, clearly showed the a large female preference for continued eye contact as differentiated from the males. It is hypothestized that this gradually turns into a female preference for social relationships.
The literature is replete with experiments in which parents and researchers adamantly refused to give "trucks" to boys to play with and did not give "dolls" to girls. In the large majority of the cases, strongly suggesting innate differences, boys used the dolls as vehicles and the girls hugged the trucks.
Of course, if a woman athlete is one of those who is high on the testosterone side for her sex, I applaud her attempt to hurl the shot put.
Well, mporter, I remember this having heard, read, written papers about ... and I even later taught such later my self :wink:
(Though my literature isn't up-todate [and my fields of interest have changed as well], I'm not sure about newer researches.
mporter wrote:...........The literature is replete with experiments in which parents and researchers adamantly refused to give "trucks" to boys to play with and did not give "dolls" to girls. In the large majority of the cases, strongly suggesting innate differences, boys used the dolls as vehicles and the girls hugged the trucks.
......
The whole point of equal opportunity is giving the individual an unfettered choice in development, not forcing an arbitrarily inverted choice upon them. Reversing stereotypes, especially with previously 'conditioned' parental biases still in place, is a foolish waste of research money!
mporter- As a psych major, I studied many of the experiments dealing with sex based differences in functioning. I understand that there WERE some differences, but to a certain extent. it is a chicken/egg problem. Unless the experimental subjects were taken right out of the womb to the experiment, there is always the danger of socialization confounding the results.
Let us say, for arguments sake, that there are sex based differences. These differences vary from person to person, as do all personality differences, and abilities.
Phoenix32890 wrote:mporter- As a psych major, I studied many of the experiments dealing with sex based differences in functioning. I understand that there WERE some differences, but to a certain extent. it is a chicken/egg problem. Unless the experimental subjects were taken right out of the womb to the experiment, there is always the danger of socialization confounding the results. [ *]
Let us say, for arguments sake, that there are sex based differences. These differences vary from person to person, as do all personality differences, and abilities.
and, [*] the socialization and 'expectations' and 'intent' of the experimenters, themselves will play largely into the results.
BoGoWo- Right. I remember discussing the differences in the way parents interacted with neonates. In general, parents behave in a physically gentler way with female infants than with male.
When my son was about a little over a year old, he became ill. While he had been walking, he stopped, and spent a number of months basically sitting around. As a result, I spent a lot of time talking with him, and reading to him. He has become one of the most verbal men that I have ever known. Coincidence? I think not.
Had he been physically active at that time, I probably would not have spent the same amount of time with him in conversation, and he might not have developed the verbal skills to the extent that he has.
most 'specialness' is serendipodous in some way!
Perhaps interesting re discrimination, what the German Federal Administrion Court ruled yeatserday (herewith strengthening the court's opinion from 2001):
German Court Strengthens Rights of Stay-at-Home Moms, Dads[/URL]
The attempt to assign all differences between men and women to "socialization" is, in my opinion, a fruitless one.
There are many differences. This does not mean that different implies unequal. It merely means different.
There is a great deal of evidence to show that differences do indeed exist.
l. All cultures divide their labor by sex. Indeed, the division of labor was present even in a culture where everyone tried to stamp it our- The Israeli Kibbutz.
2. Human male and female behavioral differences find analogies through the mammalian class of animals. The males tend to compete more aggressively; the female are more inclined to parenting.
3. The brains of men differ visibly fromthe brains of women in several ways--larger brains with more neuron for men--women have more gray matter.
The nuclei in the hypothalimus are larger in men. These nuclei have been linked to sexual behavior and aggressiveness.
Women's left and right hemispheres appear to be larger so that their brains may function more smoothly than men's.
High testosterone levels in males correlate with libido, self-confidence and the push for dominance.
Women's cognitive strengths and weaknesses vary with the phase of their menstrual cycle.
There are differences between men and women. These differences do not make them unequal with respect to basic rights--merely different.
You don't even have to be scientific about it. Watch little boys and little girls playing together with toy cars. Little boys make motor noises.
Little girls don't.
Lol - I did.
I think there are some differences - but I think it is very difficult to determine how great they are.
I loved to play with dolls AND trucks and such - as part of the local boy group I had lots of chances, too.
The boys would play with my dolls, too - rather secretively - cos they already knew the adults would freak.
We knew the rules that early! Me + trucks = no freaking (major anyway)
Boys + dolls = major freaking.
I am very much afraid that dlowan is being simplistic in her comment that it is very difficult to "detect how great differences are".
Dlowan is referred to Deborah Blum's Sex on the Brain for further information. Blum, a Pulitzer Prize winner, presents a great deal of evidence with regard to the large swings in behavior in both men and women due to the presence of hormones such as estrogen and testosterone.
They do make a difference. At times a very large difference resulting in wide variances in behavior.
I am reading a series of things on sex and the brain at the moment - the field is moving so fast that today's fact is tomorrow's maybe, and the day after's sometimes discarded theory.
The hormones are certainly interesting.
You note I made no claim of no difference - it is a matter of reasonable debate and no real proof re just how great the differences are - especially given the apparent plasticity of the young and developing brain to experience (and I have very recently studied infant neurological development).
You claim they are great - and assume (I think) that I speak from dogma or ignorance when I say I think such claims are not proven.
We must for now agree to disagree - or at least, I do not disagree as such, but merely refrain from agreeing with either "side" as yet - and remain sceptical of both.
What is mporter's reason for speaking in the third person of dlowan, by the way?
Dlowna finds it rather curious of mporter to speak thus.
Not a criticism, really - I just notice language a lot.
And, if you are about to say "how feminine" - watch it - LOL - the thinking on that one is moving about rapidly!
We, Walter Hinteler, by grace from Germany etc pp, think that dlowan shouldn't take too much notice to that.
We have the strong feeling that She otherwise could fall back to bad attitudes, like grrrr-ing all over the pages.
Besides, We hope, She has had a nice Sundy.
She has - and only grrrrrrrs on silly pages.
Moreover, she realises she has taken a vow of not discussing gender issues on this forum, and will revert to said vow.
Moreover, she hopes Walter is enjoying a pleasant Sunday in his far northern land?
I am reading about Greenland and the Norse, hence certain oddities in reference to your country...
Greenland: We think "Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr".
However, a bit
Brrrrr here as well :wink:
If dlowan is truly interested in the issue of the "plasticity of the brain, I would like to suggest that she read the highly praised book by Professor Steven Pinker. Professor Pinker gives a good deal of empirical evidence that there is a great deal less neural plasticity than supposed.
