192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
Lash
 
  0  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 10:33 am
@georgeob1,
Would you be satisfied if either through impeachment or collapse of Trump popularity put Pence or another R in office, or are you a big Trump supporter?

Btw, reports of Bern’s presidential demise are premature. For sure.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 10:36 am
@revelette1,
Did McCain and Clinton break the same laws shopping for the Steele dossier?
hightor
 
  3  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 10:43 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
protective illusions
fatuous
trumped up charges
lies and deceptions
ridiculous spectacle
circus
indicators of serious corruption
hard-to-love shrill Cherokee
loonies
Democrat hysteria


Your analysis might be more effective if you toned down the hyperbole and obvious bias. Your "key facts" seem more like partisan talking points devised to help all Trump supporters stay on message with a tenuous relation to the truth. Do you really believe that, had presidents Obama or Clinton had asked foreign states to provide information damaging to their opponents the reaction from Republicans would be a mere shrug?

Quote:
In any event unfolding events will reveal the truth.


And that we can agree on.








oralloy
 
  0  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 10:57 am
@hightor,
So when does Hillary go to jail for the Steele dossier?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 10:58 am
@Lash,
Lash wrote:
Did McCain and Clinton break the same laws shopping for the Steele dossier?

Democrats claim that it doesn't matter when they are the ones to break the law.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 10:59 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
When we find out that they've been colluding with a foreign power. Next?

So, right now in other words?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 11:19 am
@hightor,
I believe what you call hyperbole was merely a series of well-phrased and compact statements of truth. You call it hyperbole only because you reject the underlying facts and opinions : I don't reject them.

My intent was to compactly communicate my beliefs in this matter- just as have numerous posters above done theirs. Odd that you didn't term their arguments as mere "talking points" for Trump foes.

The obvious but key unstated fact here is that the successful Impeachment of President Trump is a virtual impossibility, both from a political perspective (not enough votes in the Senate), and a legal one (proving criminal intent on the President's part and that the requested investigation of corruption - in keeping with the President's Constitutionally established responsibilities - was in effect a campaign contribution is nearly impossible).

Even more intriguing is Speaker Pelosi's decision to loudly announce an impeachment inquiry and then take no action to implement it in the House of Representatives. In the first place she already knows and has acknowledged that conviction is impossible. In the second she is an astute and experienced politician and surely anticipated the consequences & side effects of the inept & deceitful Intel. Committee Chairman Schiff's subsequent actions. Their direct effect so far has been the renewed spectacle of irrational Democrat anti Trump frenzy and a public focus on the corruption issues involving Biden. The side effects are renewed public support for Trump and the effective end of the Biden candidacy. Just what might have been her motives here is a very interesting question. Given the ongoing Barr investigations and the results she may expect, she may well have sacrificed Biden to protect the party from future damage.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 11:40 am
He’s impeached if they bring charges.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 11:47 am
@Lash,
I wrote "successful impeachment" explicitly to mean conviction.
Lash
 
  0  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 11:51 am
@georgeob1,
I did think you probably equated ‘successful impeachment’ with removal from office, but that’s still a misnomer.

Would you be as satisfied if Pence or one of Trump’s R challengers wins in 2020, or do you prefer Trump.

I’m just curious. I don’t have an angle.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 11:56 am
@Lash,
I'm not aware of any serious challengers to Trump (i.e. with any chance of winning) within the Republican Party
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 12:52 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I wrote "successful impeachment" explicitly to mean conviction.
A guarantee of successful conviction is not the necessary precursor to an impeachment investigation or trial. And obviously ought not to be.

McConnell, in a campaign video on Facebook, has already stated that impeachment following a trial will be stopped by him. He makes no allowance for whatever evidence of impeachable offences might be revealed nor whatever number of such offences of whatever degree of severity. He has also stated that the duration of such a trial will be his perogative to determine.

It really ought to be obvious to anyone that those who wrote the constitution didn't have in mind a legal structure where impeachment proceedings are only proper or valid to commence where the WH and Senate are controlled by different parties and where partisanship trumps all moral, ethical and legal standards.

There would be nothing amiss in claiming that impeachment has, or can have, a loud political component. That's inevitable. The last example, with Bill Clinton, featured political aspects from top to bottom. I do not recall you complaining about it at the time. And I swear to god I do not recall Rush Limbaugh or Newt Gingrich advancing your argument back then.

It now looks very much like a trial is inevitable. Pelosi's comments regarding how the Ukranian issues are somewhat easier for the public to understand thus making impeachment an easier hill to climb is a good and practical real-world argument. Given McConnell's admission (though anyone with a functioning brain-stem would have predicted it in any case), Pelosi and the Dems will be smart to drag out the investigation phase as long as possible while doing what they can to get new information out to the public.

And, again, given McConnell's promise to ignore any/all evidence that might emerge, thus making any trial moot, Pelosi is smart to recognize that this is now a political battle and not a legal matter.

So, in conclusion, **** you guys.
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 01:04 pm
This is important, potentially very important
Quote:
Washington's growing antitrust war against Silicon Valley is opening a rift among Republicans — with the Koch family’s vast political operation and other small-government groups emerging as the tech industry’s key allies on the issue.

The split is starkest between free-market conservatives who view the mushrooming antitrust investigations of Google, Facebook and Amazon as government intrusions into private enterprise, and GOP lawmakers and regulators who believe the companies themselves now pose a threat to market competition, privacy and free speech. That latter group has found a rare piece of common ground with Democrats, who are broadly and increasingly calling for tougher Silicon Valley regulations.

The most visible sign of the divide came last month when Americans for Prosperity, the political organization founded by conservative mega-donors Charles and the late David Koch, launched a Facebook ad campaign targeting nine Republican and Democratic state attorneys general who are leading antitrust investigations of Google and Facebook. The ads direct voters to submit form letters urging the AGs to avoid creating a "political spectacle" and arguing that "punishing companies for size or success would mean risking the jobs of countless Americans."...
Politico

Cooperation and coordination between the Koch crowd and the big tech boys poses risks to democracy as great as any I can imagine.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  3  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 01:26 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:


georgeob1 wrote:
I wrote "successful impeachment" explicitly to mean conviction.


A guarantee of successful conviction is not the necessary precursor to an impeachment investigation or trial. And obviously ought not to be.



The political part of the Executive branch of the U.S. is more corrupt now than at anytime in history. Corrupt to its very core. It is branching out to include a large potion of the Republican members in the House and Senate.

The legal case for an impeachment inquiry into the President. Congress has a constitutional duty to address potentially impeachable offenses. Impeachment is the process by which a legislative body levels charges against a government official. Impeachment does not in itself remove the official definitively from office; it is similar to an indictment in criminal law, and thus it is essentially the statement of charges against the official.

Therefore, a successful impeach is only defined as successful passage by the House of Representatives in the United States.
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 01:32 pm
@BillW,
Quote:
Congress has a constitutional duty to address potentially impeachable offenses.
Of course it does. To refrain from doing so is not merely a moral and constitutional failure, it can only reaffirm in citizens' minds that the American political system has no rationale and no function other than continuation of corrupt centers of power.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 01:45 pm
@blatham,
I'm not aware of any statement by McConnel precluding a trial and investigation in the Senate, and indeed it isn't at all clear to me that he has the power (or even the self-interest) to simply call a vote without one. He has however been very clear that he believes there aren't the votes to convict in the Senate as the matter now stands.

I disagree with you about Pelosi's likely intentions. She has previously been explicit about her opposition to an impeachment and, despite her comments in her speech last week, she still took no action to either name a select investigating committee or put forward a resolution in the House starting a formal inquiry. Why???

Hard to know her real motives and intentions, but I believe she recognizes just how weak the legal case on the Ukrainian matter truly is (involving as it does a conflict between Presidential responsibility and partisanship) , and the extent to which a serious inquiry into it could damage Democrat prospects in the coming elections, both Presidential and in the Congress. Even the ongoing circus in Adam Schiff's Intel. Committee is proving so far to be both ineffective in attaining the presumed objective and to have very adverse side effects for Candidate Biden and Democrats generally.

I believe your speculations about the framer's intent in the Constitutional procedures for removing a sitting president are demonstrably incorrect.

With respect to the Clinton Impeachment I had no strong conviction on the political merits either way. I wouldn't have been unhappy to see him go, and I was well aware that any corporate CEO (or officer) who was routinely getting blowjobs in the office from a subordinate female employee would be removed immediately ( except, of course, for liberal media figures: they tend to)last longer in these roles.)

Finally I believe there will be no impeachment action by the House of Representatives, and no trial in the Senate. The legal case is very week; conviction impossible; and the Democrats have far more to lose than gain by trying. That said TDS is indeed a disorienting phenomenon and many less sophisticated and experienced Democrats appear to be seriously in its grip and bereft of reason as a result.


I hope you are having a good weekend.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  3  
Sun 6 Oct, 2019 01:46 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
Congress has a constitutional duty to address potentially impeachable offenses.
Of course it does. To refrain from doing so is not merely a moral and constitutional failure, it can only reaffirm in citizens' minds that the American political system has no rationale and no function other than continuation of corrupt centers of power.


I know you mean, but I want to emphasize that Congress means both the House and the Senate. The actions of some Republican members in the face of this massive corruption is UnAmerican and corrupt.
blatham
 
  2  
Mon 7 Oct, 2019 05:15 am
@BillW,
No argument on that.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Mon 7 Oct, 2019 06:55 am
Quote:
Efforts to impeach Barack Obama
During Barack Obama's tenure as President of the United States from 2009 to 2017, certain Republican members of Congress, as well as Democratic congressman Dennis Kucinich,[1] stated that Obama had engaged in impeachable activity and that he might face attempts to remove him from office.[2] Rationales offered for possible impeachment included false claims[3] that Obama was born outside the United States, that he allegedly allowed people to use bathrooms based on their gender identity, an alleged White House cover-up after the 2012 Benghazi attack, and failure to enforce immigration laws. No list of articles of impeachment was ever drawn up and proposed to the Judiciary Committee.

Multiple surveys of U.S. public opinion found that the clear majority of Americans rejected the idea of impeaching Obama, while a majority of Republicans were in favor; for example, CNN found in July 2014 that 57% of Republicans supported these efforts while about two thirds of adult Americans in general disagreed with them.[4]
wiwikipedia
oralloy
 
  -3  
Mon 7 Oct, 2019 06:58 am
@blatham,
They should have impeached him. Clearly progressives will not stop until people stand up to them.
0 Replies
 
 

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