192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 06:46 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

We don't have any aggressive confessional disputes between Christians at the moment, but that doesn't mean that it won't come back: after more than 400 years of religious wars, the patterns are still in the minds of the people.


Northern Ireland being a case in point. There needs to be a wall to separate the two communities. And Brexit could well bring us back to the dark days of the euphemistically named 'troubles.'

https://www.timetravelturtle.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Belfast-2014-419_new.jpg
0 Replies
 
najmelliw
 
  3  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 06:50 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

One has to be careful in ascribing religious motives to wars.


That is very true. However, given the importance of religion in those times, it would be equally wrong to dismiss religion altogether as a motivation to go to war. I concur that the reasons of the kings and rulers might have political grounds, but I reckon many a soldier (or conscripted peasant or what not) on the battlefield was driven by religious zeal.

Wars, especially wars in those days, were fought by soldiers of course.And soldiers need other reasons than abstract political concepts to motivate them. Sure, some got paid, but there simply wasn't enough money in supply to pay every man that fought on a battlefield in that bloody time span.

And just to point out the power of religious fervor, a nice example is the Münster rebellion in 1534/35 about a century earlier.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 07:18 am
@najmelliw,
najmelliw wrote:
Sure, some got paid, but there simply wasn't enough money in supply to pay every man that fought on a battlefield in that bloody time span.
The warriors in the 30-year war were tormented by hunger, lice, syphilis. They were "paid" by plundering the occupied sites (see: Simplicius Simplicissimus [the book, I mean, links to translated online books at the bottom of the wikipedia site]
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 08:02 am
@najmelliw,
The Wars of the Reformation were, of course, fought by those whose motives were religious. But that was long before the Thirty Years War. Although the Swedes in the army of Gustav Adolf were probably motivated by the prospect of the return of Catholicism at the time of the wars in Poland, it is important to remember that that first crop were military colonists from the borders of Scania, the southern part of Sweden controlled by the Danes. They were enrolled, equipped and trained even before what we call the Thirty Years War began. Poland was a threat to Lutherans in Sweden, but the Empire never was. As Walter points out, that war was (those wars were) also a part of the period of nation building, and, for Sweden, empire building.

Certainly not in all cases, but in many, perhaps most cases, religion is the casus belli. The crusades may have ostensibly been about the rights of Christians in the so-called Holy Land, but the Franks who went there who really were men-at-arms, knights and noblemen went there to take land. When Popes called for a crusade against the Cathars, they were ignored--until Innocent III promised to declare the lords of Languedoc heretics and their estates forfeit (even though they were feudatories of the King of Aragon). The Franks lined up for that one then. The incidents of Christian brutality on a religious basis were pretty specific--various pogroms, of course, and real madness like the Rhineland massacres of Jews at the beginning of the First Crusade. The success of the Reconquista in 1492 lead to the requirement for Moors (i.e., Muslims) and Jews to convert or vacate the newly created kingdom. Isabella was a fanatic, and her husband Ferdinand (definitely the junior partner in that marriage) was the pragnatist who knew they could seize the estates of those who emigrated.

All of which is why I say one should avoid the simplistic sort of crap that cj peddles around here. Every case is different, and each needs to be examined individually.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 09:16 am
@Setanta,
You may want to read:

The German Lutheran Church and the Rise of National Socialism, by Hans Tiefel, Church History, Vol. 41, No. 3 (Sep., 1972), available at
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/church-history/article/german-lutheran-church-and-the-rise-of-national-socialism/074032270EBB880C7283554D363DE29D#

The second paragraph reads as follows:

Quote:
Official Lutheran support began with Hitler's accession to power and continued till the end of the war, despite the martyrs, the oppression, the war and the rather obvious destructive nature of Nazism. In January, 1934, all the Lutheran bishops affirmed their unconditional loyalty to the new government. They sharply condemned "all intrigues of criticism of the state, nation and (Nazi) movement which might endanger the Third Reich."2 They pledged themselves to support Hitler's Reich-bishop and affirmed their unconditional and unreserved assent to state and party. A Lutheran conference in 1935 concluded that there was no opposition between National Socialism and the proclamation of the church. Opposition could arise only if National Socialism were a new religion which attempted to replace the Christian faith. But since this obviously was not the case, all Christians should gladly meet National Socialist demands as confirmation of their Christian faith.

2. Niemöller, Wilhelm, Hitler und die evangelisohen Kirchenführer (Bielefeld: Ludwig Bechauf Verlag, 1959), p.62.



0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  4  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 09:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Placing this discussion in context, I was responding to Pinky's post:

coldjoint wrote:

Keep going until you find a religion that sanctions those massacres ...

I pointed at a number of wars and massacres sanctioned by various Christian churches and denominations. I assume this point is not in debate, not even by Pinky himself so far.

Just to clarify further, I never said that religion was the only motive in all these cases, nor did I mention the Thirty Years War.

coldjoint
 
  -3  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 10:23 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
sanctioned by various Christian churches and denominations.

It very well could have been sanctioned by leaders in the church but not by Christian doctrine. Why do you have such a hard time with that? Christianity is hijacked when that happens.

It is like you thinking how a Muslim interprets Islam can change Islam. It does not work that way. Muhammad completed Islam (again, in the Koran) and that is the way it goes. It cannot be changed and trying to change it is punishable by death. Any Muslim who disagrees with Muhammad about Islam is wrong. That goes for any Frenchman too.
coldjoint
 
  -3  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 10:32 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
All of which is why I say one should avoid the simplistic sort of crap that cj peddles around here. Every case is different, and each needs to be examined individually.


It is simple to understand Islam. You do not have the capacity, or sand, to accept the truth so excuses for the Islamic obligations, clearly stated in scripture, have been supported by apologists, which you are one of.

0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -3  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 11:40 am
Quote:
Actress Alyssa Milano Speaks Out Against Linda Sarsour and Tamika Mallory’s Tolerance of Antisemitism

This air headed actress has the brain power to call out the obvious. Why do progressives and Democrats have such a hard time condemning antisemitism?
http://www.israellycool.com/2018/11/07/actress-alyssa-milano-speaks-out-against-linda-sarsour-and-tamika-mallorys-tolerance-of-antisemitism/
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -4  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 12:43 pm

Just for the Hell of it. There are two sides to every story. 50 years at Ivy league schools and he resorts to physics to prove his point. Shame on him. Remember climate science was created with one goal in mind. That would be the imposition of the carbon tax. Another huge lie right up there with the facts about Israel.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  4  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 12:46 pm
@coldjoint,
There are as many Christian doctrines as there are denominations.
coldjoint
 
  -4  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 12:47 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
There are as many Christian doctrines

No, there are not. But if there are, find one that says to kill to advance that religion, and kill soley for that purpose. Islam says that.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 12:49 pm
@coldjoint,
Says who?
coldjoint
 
  -4  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 01:06 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Says who?

I do. Check the edit there is a question for you. I can show you what I asked for with Islam, can you with Christianity?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  4  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 01:48 pm
@coldjoint,
Quote:
find one that says to kill to advance that religion

You could start with the Bible itself. It's full of very godly advice to kill non believers. Or folks working on shabat.

Behold the words of sweet Jesus, in Luke 19.27: "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Then you could read "Of Jews and their Lies" by Martin Luther. He advocates to burn all synagogues, expell all Jews from Christian lands, and let unpunished those bandits who would kindly want to kill them.

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/martin_luther/onthejewsandtheirlies11.html
ehBeth
 
  4  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 01:59 pm
bye bye Beauregard

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/07/539109386/jeff-sessions-out-as-attorney-general-after-steady-drumbeat-of-criticism-from-tr

Quote:
Jeff Sessions, the president's earliest and most fervent supporter in Congress, stepped down as attorney general Wednesday after brutal criticism from the president, bringing an abrupt end to his controversial tenure as the nation's top law enforcement officer.

President Trump wrote on Twitter after a marathon press conference at the White House that Sessions was out and that Sessions' chief of staff, Matthew Whitaker, would serve as an acting replacement.


Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump
We are pleased to announce that Matthew G. Whitaker, Chief of Staff to Attorney General Jeff Sessions at the Department of Justice, will become our new Acting Attorney General of the United States. He will serve our Country well....

2:44 PM - Nov 7, 2018
ehBeth
 
  2  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 02:04 pm
@ehBeth,
The timing is fascinating. Was he waiting til the Dems were in a position to protect Mueller? <shrug>
ehBeth
 
  2  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 02:05 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/07/jeff-sessions-fired-us-attorney-general

Quote:
“At your request, I am submitting my resignation”.
RABEL222
 
  2  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 02:35 pm
@Setanta,
How about the Cambodian political murders to secure communism. 2 million or thereabout.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  3  
Wed 7 Nov, 2018 02:53 pm
@ehBeth,
I really hope he talks.

I suspect he won’t.
 

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