192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 08:31 am
@revelette1,
Quote:
More than one million protesters vow to resist President Trump

The thing that really fired up the crowd was Trumps 'pussy grabbing'. Are all those women really worried about him grabbing theirs'?

That's a joke, but my GF had the only concrete thing I've heard that they wanted to resist - cutting funding for Planned Parenthood. I wouldn't want that cut either btw
revelette1
 
  4  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 08:52 am
@Leadfoot,
I doubt that was only thing, but it was disgusting and shown how little respect Trump has for women. It is not a character a lot of women want in a president and many men who care about their mother's, daughters and sisters and wives, girlfriends and women friends. I am not going to ever excuse it or make light of it.

Almost all conservatives are against women's issues such as planned parenthood and the right to choose. When Bush was elected you didn't see women marching against him.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  -1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 08:56 am
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

My sister went. I am very proud of her. I don't know why anyone is surprised at the women's marches around the world. I mean we had to put up with some disgusting behavior which came from the now President people are now trying to pass off as normal behavior.

Women’s marches: More than one million protesters vow to resist President Trump



Hmm...How come they didn't resist him AT THE BALLOT BOX???

Don't women out number men in these United States?
revelette1
 
  3  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 09:04 am
@giujohn,
Perhaps they do, in any event, perhaps some of them who marched against him wasn't for Hillary either.
giujohn
 
  -1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 09:14 am
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

Perhaps they do, in any event, perhaps some of them who marched against him wasn't for Hillary either.


Hmmm...That means they either didn't vote or they through away their vote...Because they thought Hillary would win anyhow...And now they want to resist him. Seems childish to me. Like a tantrum.

Why even bother with a vote...Let's just make it a wrestling match...Best two out of three falls.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 09:31 am
@nimh,
Quote:
Too many liberals have chosen to argue (and, judging on their own class background, likely genuinely feel) that 'our side' is the one that identifies with and defends the politicians, policy makers, bureaucrats, intelligence services and other, surely well-intentioned powers that be against that icky, cynical, crude, rabble-rousing populism Trump uses (and, you know, stole key parts of your old electorate with).


It's nice to see that not all progressives are in complete denial, but then you're not an American progressive and so are not likely to have your vision clouded by bitter tears of defeat.

Of course your side identifies with the policy makers, the politicians, the bureaucrats and the technocrats. You're progressives. You believe that with the right experts in place, government can be a benign force, and, actually, the most benign force in the world. Your global leader for the last eight years, early on stated that one of his goals was to make government "cool" again. I'm not sure when it was ever "cool" but Obama was clearly a big believer of a robust government deeply involved in the everyday lives of the citizenry.

Of course this sounds like Big Brother to people like me, but I understand the allure of the Philosopher King, the Benevolent Dictator, God. The problem with this attraction is that of the three examples two are human and the existence of the one who is not, is denied by a great many who might like to accept divine guidance but can’t rationalize it.

Certainly progressives will argue that they don’t want anything to do with strongmen; that they are democrats, but is the latter actually true?

Perhaps due to their long history and intense experience with strongmen, European progressives are less attracted to such figures than their American cousins, and I believe that the government of the EU strongly suggests that, generally speaking, this is the case

(I don’t think any group of people, regardless of their shared ideology, are completely immune to the allure of the charismatic, dynamic Leader. The circumstances of the moment usually gives rise to such figures and enables those who would normally shrink from a strongman to see the need for flexibility in their worldview. )

You would know a lot better than I, but I certainly can’t identify one individual who is clearly in charge of the EU and from whom all policy and direction flow. If one member state is materially more powerful economically than the others, that nation’s leader is likely to have the most influence on EU policies (e.g. Angela Merkel), but I would imagine (and again please correct me here if I am off base) that the only EU citizens who have seen Merkel as an autocratic menace tend to be those living in Have Not states like Greece.

From what I’ve read and based on discussions I’ve had with my friends in the UK, the faceless bureaucrat in Brussels, not Angela Merkel was the bad guy for Brexit supporters, and this leads me to question whether this, the foremost example of progressive political theory in practice, is all that democratic.

We’ve had numerous arguments, in this forum, on the merits of a system of governance based on pure democracy, so it’s not some inviolable Law of Political Science that democracy is the perfect state of governance. To the degree that the EU is less democratic than other governmental entities, this is not by default, a condemnation, but I do think it’s best to call a spade a spade, and not try to attach popularized political buzzwords like democratic or liberal to our favored methods and entities; regardless of how well they apply. Less democracy can be best for the governed, but if they disagree any “less democratic” system is bound to fail or become even less democratic.

As a general rule, the more power an individual or entity has the more wary of them I become. Diffusion of power through a progressive “less democratic” technocracy is one way to address the peril of power concentration, but at the same time it is greatly empowering individuals without corresponding accountability. While each individual might not have the personal power to create drastic impacts on the citizenry, as a network or hive of concentrated power and without the requisite accountability it can be as dangerous (albeit less dynamic) as any autocratic strongman.

You’re also right that not that long ago (certainly within my lifetime) the Left was the anti-establishment “side.” Growing up in the 60’s and 70’s my fellow radicals and I would never trust the government to the extent that progressives do today, let alone trust it to make highly significant decisions about our lives (e.g. whether or not we needed to go to Vietnam and fight in a war), and we would likely be stunned to look into a Crystal Ball and see the path the Left has followed. Not-with-standing his personal flaws, I truly believe that major segments of Trump’s message (if delivered by someone with a more counter-culture persona) would have deeply resonated with my friends and I.

I am amazed when, in my political discussions with progressive nephews and nieces, I realize how much faith they have placed in their government. It seems to be though that this is not a result of any great benefits they have received (although there are some) from government, but because they are attracted to Big Government Politicians who simultaneously espouse social positions of which they approve. Usually it’s the social issues that drive their allegiance, and, with the youngest among them, the individual’s level of “coolness.” The American Left may currently be in political disarray, but it would be in a much worse position if it hadn’t been scoring major victories in the Culture Wars over the past 30 years.
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 10:26 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Well said Finn.
The EU does indeed appear to be run by a faceless bureaucracy. The degree to which that is fact or merely appearance is something I don't know well. However it is evident from the rhetoric of the BREXIT forces in the UK, the emerging National Front in France, and analogous political forces in Italy, Hungary and other EU states, that many in Europe express such opinions and they have become a formidable political force..

More to the point the EU government has indeed used the 'common market' and the expressed goal of 'ever more perfect union' to micromanage broad aspects of commerce, manufacture, labor managemen, and. through the mandated borderless movement of people, immigration and the acceptance of refugees. It appears to have become something very different from the federal union that some envisioned a few decades ago. The process through which this was achieved deliberately avoided national referenda (after a few notable setbacks), instead involving treaties approved by the member governments. It isn't clear to me just what are the binding statutory limits on the power of the EU government relative to those of the member states, and that appears to be a central issue in the current political tensions there.

I believe the EU has indeed been a great success in achieving the goals initially laid out for it; peace in Europe and shared economic development. The threats to its stability and future appear to largely result from growing popular resentment of the progressive policies through which a faceless bureaucracy in Brusseld micromanages the lives of Europeans without regard to local concerns.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 10:47 am
@blatham,
Drudge linked to Chicago Tribune I believe.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 10:56 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Perhaps due to their long history and intense experience with strongmen, European progressives are less attracted to such figures than their American cousins, and I believe that the government of the EU strongly suggests that, generally speaking, this is the case
The EU doesn't have a government.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:

From what I’ve read and based on discussions I’ve had with my friends in the UK, the faceless bureaucrat in Brussels, not Angela Merkel was the bad guy for Brexit supporters, and this leads me to question whether this, the foremost example of progressive political theory in practice, is all that democratic.
I don't think that in the UK (actually, I only know the situation in England and Scotland) many civil servants and public employees are elected, and I doubt, many UK-citizens know them if they haven't to deal with some personally.
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 11:20 am
@McGentrix,
Thanks.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 11:23 am
Politico has a very good piece up today with 21 historians pointing to historical periods closest to this one. Well worth reading. Here's one:
Quote:
In important ways, things aren’t as bleak in America today as they were in the worst days of the Depression. We don’t have mass unemployment or the daily threat of nationwide unrest; Donald Trump won’t find any Hoovervilles when he arrives in Washington. But the elements that tipped the country toward chaos in the 1930s are present. There’s the broad inequality between rich and poor and the toxic estrangement between the urban metropolises and the rural working class. There’s the disorientation and misinformation from new media and the sense that, all over the world, democratic institutions are in peril and strongmen are on the rise. Trump, moreover, has more than a little in common with the showmen-demagogues of the 30s—Huey Long, Father Charles Coughlin or Charles Lindbergh—with their talent for inspiring the masses, their frequent hostility to reason and their fondness for might over right. In that sense, things are more dire today: no Depression-era demagogue ever found his way to the White House.

The one element that’s missing, and sorely needed, is a modern-day Franklin D. Roosevelt—a once-in-a-generation political talent whose understanding of emerging media helps him or her to beat the demagogues at their own game. Roosevelt’s record as a defender of liberty was not perfect (think Supreme Court packing and the Japanese internment), but in a moment of prolonged national emergency he found a way to speak to the needs of the forgotten man while largely preserving constitutional order and democratic norms. Those looking for a leader to defend our traditions against the threats of Trumpism should look for the key quality that helped Roosevelt succeed: an unrivaled genius for the politician’s arts.
Politico
edgarblythe
 
  5  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 11:28 am
One huge difference between the Great Depression and G W Bush's Great Recession is, the rich were caught off guard in 1929. But then the rich figured out how to shift the burden to the working people and made out like true bandits in the Great Recession.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 11:33 am
@edgarblythe,
I wasn't even born in 1929, but did live through the Great Depression. Our family didn't recover until all my siblings and I went to college since the late 1950s.
The US economy recovered from the Great Depression, because vets were able to go to college under the GI Bill after WWII.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  6  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 11:34 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
A couple of comments on your well-written post:

Quote:

Perhaps due to their long history and intense experience with strongmen, European progressives are less attracted to such figures than their American cousins, and I believe that the government of the EU strongly suggests that, generally speaking, this is the case


Do you think progressives in the USA are really attracted to "strongmen" and the "benevolent dictator"? The "imperial president" criticism of Obama didn't really start until 2011 and he started trying to compensate for gridlock with executive decisions. I don't think everyone who voted for Obama was a "progressive" — I think he got a lot of support in '08 and '12 from people who voted for Trump this year, for the sole reason that the two candidates were seen as "different", as "anti-establishment", as people who would shake up the system. I think liberal Democrats stuck with him because GOP obstructionism was so distasteful but I don't think they were specifically endorsing the concept of the dynamic leader per se.

I don't think "progressives" in the USA are nearly as numerous or committed as we think. I believe there's a lot of fluidity in the electorate — as there is in Europe. Italians who were happy to vote for socialists were just as happy to support Berlusconi (the political figure who most resembles Mr. Trump, IMO).

The European Union shouldn't be looked at as an independent political force like a United States of Europe. There's still too much nationalism for that. The EU itself is more like a vast layer of of rules and regulations which hovers over the continent like a toxic fog; the sheer complexity obliterates any democratically-inspired reform, the size and scope limits the power and appeal of the bureaucracy that runs it.

Quote:
Not-with-standing his personal flaws, I truly believe that major segments of Trump’s message (if delivered by someone with a more counter-culture persona) would have deeply resonated with my friends and I.


The major segments of Trump's message were so centered on the man's ego that I don't see how they can be separated. The idea that one man, and only that man, can disassemble the intricate networks of power and turf which have emerged over decades of institutional growth just seems so misconceived to me. Sure the creaking old bureaucracy is inefficient and at times maddening but it's hardly the all-encompassing force of evil that the Trumpenproletariat seems to fear and loathe. It's hard for me to see how issues like recognizing same sex marriage or enacting a carbon tax are "oppressive". Societies change over time, governments respond, the number of statutes and regulations steadily increases, the citizenry adapts, and everyone complains. Just as it's ever been, only more so.





georgeob1
 
  -2  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 11:39 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

The EU doesn't have a government.

Well it has an elected Parliament, an Executive (The European Comission) and a large bureaucracy which issues rules and required standards on thousands of matters involving the regulation of public services, commerce, manufactiring, labor management and other topics as well. What would you call that?
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 11:47 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Well it has an elected Parliament, an Executive (The European Comission) and a large bureaucracy which issues rules and required standards on thousands of matters involving the regulation of public services, commerce, manufactiring, labor management and other topics as well. What would you call that?
The EU-Parliament is a parliament, directly elected.*

The 'bureaucracy', well, if you mean the civil servants and employees in the various offices - that's an administration like in any other governmental/state/county/city/town office.

The EU-Commission, I admit, is indeed a kind of government since it proposes legislation, manages the Union’s day-to-day business and budget, enforces the rules, and negotiates international trade agreements on behalf of the EU.
"A kind of", since the Council of the European Union actually is the 'institution' which "governs".

*Edited: the Parliament, jointly with the Council of the EU, passes laws and adopts the EU’s annual budget. The Parliament also approves the membership of the European Commission and its leadership.
blatham
 
  5  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 11:58 am
Interesting point in here:
Quote:
[Nixon] entered office with an approval rating close to 60 percent. Trump, in sharp contrast, comes into office with his approval rating in the mid-30s, a level to which Nixon wouldn’t fall until the Watergate scandal was in full swing. As constrained and compromised as Nixon proved to be, Trump has even less room to maneuver.

I think we all now grasp that Trump won't be doing any of that pivot stuff. He's locked himself into a persona of personal aggrievement and bullying agressiveness, that he'll almost certainly maintain in a never-ending campaign style. Apologies, steps backwards, humility - we won't see any of that.

He's going to keep violating norms and attempting to break institutions that would normally be counted on to hold him in check. Which makes it pretty certain that the resistance to him will grow and that's one aspect of why his popularity rating is a critical matter. One could see it going up a little but it's hard to imagine how they might rise in any significant way.

If he manages to get through year one without being impeached (from, say, the on-going FBI/CIA/Intel community investigation of contacts between the campaign and Russia) his first SOTU will be absolutely predictable - the smartest and most loving politician in the history of mankind has made enormous and previously unheard of progress in everything and did so even in the face of a treasonous media and an establishment bent on destroying him. That's not going to work for long.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 11:59 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
One huge difference between the Great Depression and G W Bush's Great Recession is, the rich were caught off guard in 1929. But then the rich figured out how to shift the burden to the working people and made out like true bandits in the Great Recession.

Oh yes.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  6  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 12:09 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
The major segments of Trump's message were so centered on the man's ego that I don't see how they can be separated. The idea that one man, and only that man, can disassemble the intricate networks of power and turf which have emerged over decades of institutional growth just seems so misconceived to me.

I think that's not the whole dilemma. One has to ask which networks of power and turf he (and his cabinet and the GOP) wish to see disassembled. Obviously, McConnell or Ryan aren't interested in seeing themselves tossed even while having spent their adult lives in their particular network of power and privilege. I don't see the Exxon CEO moving to disassemble the enormous power structures surrounding oil and related corporate bodies.

Trump's "populism" is rhetorically invested in the little guy. That's his con. That's the bait and switch.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  6  
Sun 22 Jan, 2017 12:29 pm
Hello George Orwell (or more correctly, hello again George Orwell)

Quote:
Senior Trump advisor Kellyanne Conway said in an interview Sunday morning that White House press secretary Sean Spicer wasn't lying about crowd size at the President's inauguration—he was just giving "alternative facts."

"On this matter of crowd size, I think it is a symbol for the unfair and incomplete treatment that this president often receives," Conway told Chuck Todd on MSNBC's "Meet The Press."

"You did not answer the question of why the president asked the White House press secretary to come out in front of the podium for the first time and utter a falsehood," Todd interrupted. "Why did he do that? It undermines the credibility of the entire White House press office on day one."

"No, it doesn't. Don't be so overly dramatic about it, Chuck," Conway replied. "You're saying it's a falsehood, and they're giving Sean Spicer, our press secretary, gave alternative facts to that. But the point really is—"

"Wait a minute. Alternative facts? Alternative facts?" Todd interjected, looking incredulous. "Four of the five facts he uttered were just not true."

Conway tried to interrupt, but Todd continued.

"Look, alternative facts are not facts," he said.
TPM
 

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