monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

@oralloy,

I guess I could be convinced about Trump were he not involved in something potentially treasonous. Clintons major "crime" was lying under oath about his "Happy Pants" after a four year serch for other major crimes, for which he was impeached and voted out by the Senate. (Obstruction of justice was a tie with Gore casting the deciding vote). Clinton was eventually fined an found guilty in a Paula Jone related decision through a Fed District Court.
TRUMP is involved in treasonous acts, not acts of personal morality. His staff has already obstructed justice and committed perjury. Its the comparison of a lightning bug to lightning. As far as Moore, hes in the ame bot as Clinton except hes got a parade of underage girls for Chrissakes.

Monica and Paula Jones were consenting adults(of course you can argue the consenting part based on hat the recent news has exposed.

Youre merely looking for some corner by which to do a "see, Clinton got away with it"--When actually he didnt ,Clinton WAS impeached by Congress and tried by the Senate . You want Trump an Moore to just walk.
If Trump wre to stand trial by the Senate, I think hed be found guilty on charges (There are at least 5 GOP senators who are leaning outside the box, Including some possible self serving reasons for a Senator from Indiana

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@hightor,

Quote:

We're reviewing several decades worth of evolving attitudes toward and responses to various ethical dilemmas which emerge from human sexual behavior, especially the male version. And then, fairly chortling with glee, smug Mr. Whatabout? shows up to deliver a predictably long-winded partisan indictment of the liberal mindset.

Perhaps what I found most impressive in Finn's diatribe is how well he's fit the pieces together to construct a worldview that answers so many questions.

Quote:

So people's opinions and beliefs change over time

That's the story here, isn't it. Erase Clinton's sexual behavior from history and do the same with Trump's sexual behavior and, surely, this present avalanche of women speaking out about...
- sexual assaults, often in multiple instances
- the loss of employment or the intimidation (often both) that often follows reporting such assaults
- the broad inequalities in power due simply to gender
...would still have happened as a simple consequence of changes in how we think about rights and equality and the place of women in our society.

Whether it is culture in DC or culture in Hollywood or culture in Alabama or culture most anywhere in blue states or red states, women are at a disadvantage to a point where their lives can be messed up very seriously. And all women are touched by this in some manner. And we males, probably almost all of us, have been conveniently dull-headed about all of this.

This doesn't excuse anyone (and the author of this Juanita piece that was the subject of Finn's rebukathon post doesn't excuse anyone) from behaviors past or on-going by anyone.

Human sexuality is an inevitably fraught with complexities and dangers. If anyone knows of a culture present or past which has demonstrated a problem-free mental/social arrangement re sex, please point me in that direction.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote:

And again the commander-in-chief made a more than just foolish mistake when he failed to recognise the latest massacre in Rancho Tehama Reserve, California:

Jesus. He has a great brain. Fantastic brain. He's extremely intelligent. Extremely. Believe me.

With Trump's narcissism and his pathological need to be seen as the Powerful and Frightening Alpha Dude, there's no way he'd let anyone control or police what he wants to say.

On the other hand though, he didn't pal around with terrorists. The Mafia is not defined as a terrorist organization. Particularly in New York.

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Boy, Moore certainly is a classic instance of a classic thing

Quote:

While he never directly addressed the allegations that were first reported by The Washington Post on Thursday, Moore said he was facing “an evil day” and said it was time for Christians to take a stand.

“If you take a stand, you are going to face persecution. … That’s your reward,” he said, referencing the evangelical ideology that “persecution” on earth produces rewards in the afterlife. “Why do you think they’re giving me this trouble? Why do you think I’m being harassed in the media and people pushing for an allegation in the last 28 days of the election?”

He claimed that if it was “God’s will” he would make it to Congress and continued to paint himself as a martyr.

“Don’t think when you stand for truth, when you stand for the recognition of God, that you’re not going to be attacked,” he said

TPM
This particular theological framing is fundamental in much of southern evangelical christianity. We are, like the christians thrown to the lions, victims and our holiness is proved by the victimization. An attack on me/us is an attack on God, Jesus and Goodness.

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Quote:

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY) on Tuesday afternoon indicated he will not let Roy Moore serve in the U.S. Senate for long, if at all.

During a Wall Street Journal event, McConnell said that Moore would face an ethics probe quickly if he does win the December election to fill the Senate seat representing Alabama.

“I think it’s safe to say that if he were to be sworn in, he would immediately be in a process before the Senate Ethics Committee,” McConnell said

TPM

Smart move by McConnell. Present Moore with the certainty of an ethics investigation IF he runs and is elected. So Moore (if we presume the likelihood of guilt) has to decide whether to risk the near-certain public disclosure of these (and maybe other) revelations that it's not God that leads him around, it's actually his dick that does that, or he can drop out and under cover of disappearing media attention, continue running whatever money-making scams he sees on the horizon. I'd wager that Moore drops out.

And there's this

Quote:

RNC cuts off Moore
The national party pulls out of a fundraising pact with the Alabama candidate, further isolating him.

Politico

OK, now this

Quote:

Fox News host Sean Hannity walked back Tuesday night his original remarks insinuating that the five women accusing Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore of sexual assault when they were teenagers might be lying.

"For me, the judge has 24 hours," Hannity said. "You must immediately and fully come up with a satisfactory explanation for your inconsistencies that I just showed."

Politico

And this

Quote:

But over the past few days, Bannon has begun privately taking the temperature of those in his inner circle to see what they think of the Moore allegations and to get their sense of how to proceed, according to four knowledgeable sources. Late last week, the Breitbart chairman said, “I will put him in a grave myself,” if he determines that Moore was lying to him about the numerous accusations, a source close to Bannon relayed.

DB

Earlier, Finn framed McConnell's position as a consequence of McConnell representing the "establishment". I imagine he'd include the RNC in that category. So do we today or tomorrow include Bannon and Hannity as "establishment"? I think we perhaps could but not in any way that would please Finn.

And wouldn't you love to hear the voices whispering in Trump's ear re Moore. And what on earth is Trump going to do or say, given Trump's own history? And how ******* twisted is Sanders going to have to get in dealing with this?

What an administration. What a party. Principled patriots and civil servants all.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

He raped and assaulted women. He got away with that.

He was impeached for lying under oath about an unrelated matter.

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Social change and the expansion of equal rights to those previously not granted that equality and those rights

Quote:

Australians have voiced their opinion on same-sex marriage — and they are overwhelmingly in favor of it.

According to the results of a historic national postal survey announced by the Australian Bureau of Statistics on Tuesday, 61.6 percent of Australian voters said yes, same-sex marriage should be legalized. A majority in every single state and territory voted in favor of marriage equality, with a turnout of 79.5 percent of eligible voters nationwide.

The results now go to the government, which opted to survey the population before the parliament took up its own vote on the issue.

Vox

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

I guess I could be convinced about Trump were he not involved in something potentially treasonous.

There is no chance that Trump was involved in anything treasonous.

farmerman wrote:

Clintons major "crime" was lying under oath about his "Happy Pants"

Actually Clinton committed perjury (both before the civil trial and before the grand jury), obstruction of justice, and witness tampering.

farmerman wrote:

TRUMP is involved in treasonous acts,

Nonsense.

farmerman wrote:

not acts of personal morality.

Are you characterizing perjury, obstruction of justice, and witness tampering as acts of personal morality?

farmerman wrote:

His staff has already obstructed justice and committed perjury.

Nonsense.

farmerman wrote:

Its the comparison of a lightning bug to lightning.

Maybe in that Clinton committed actual crimes while Trump did not.

farmerman wrote:

As far as Moore, hes in the ame bot as Clinton except hes got a parade of underage girls for Chrissakes.

The similarities between Moore and Clinton have not gone unnoticed by me.

farmerman wrote:

Monica and Paula Jones were consenting adults(of course you can argue the consenting part based on hat the recent news has exposed.

No consent on Paula Jones' part.

Does Monica's consent make it OK to commit a long string of felonies to cover it up?

farmerman wrote:

Youre merely looking for some corner by which to do a "see, Clinton got away with it"--

No need for me to look. All I need to do is state facts (something that I am very skilled at doing).

farmerman wrote:

--When actually he didnt ,Clinton WAS impeached by Congress and tried by the Senate . You want Trump an Moore to just walk.

Clinton was not removed from office. He got away with it.

farmerman wrote:

You want Trump an Moore to just walk.

Well Trump hasn't even done anything wrong.

You're damn right I want Moore to walk.

farmerman wrote:

If Trump wre to stand trial by the Senate, I think hed be found guilty on charges (There are at least 5 GOP senators who are leaning outside the box, Including some possible self serving reasons for a Senator from Indiana

The Republicans are never going to convict a president who has not even done anything wrong. That's a Democratic pipe dream.

And even if it were the case that Trump had committed some wrongdoing, the Republicans would never remove him after Bill Clinton was allowed to commit all those felonies right in the White House.

0 Replies

@Lash,

Quote:

He raped and assaulted women. He got away with that.

True (or as equally probable of being true) also of Trump?

Quote:

Documenting Trump’s Abuse of Women
For his 1993 book, “The Lost Tycoon,” Harry Hurt III acquired Ivana’s divorce deposition, in which she stated that Trump raped her.

Jane Mayer, NYer

1 Reply

@blatham,

Given the report that Moore was banned from a mall because of his perversion for young girls, I think, that report finished him as it is something concrete.

I will agree that given the accusations against Bill Clinton, democrats as a whole really can't jump on the band wagon and call for Moore to step down.

1 Reply

Meanwhile, republicans are trying to distract from the Moore situation and the Trump administration/Russia ties by putting pressure on the Session to appoint a special counsel to look into that stupid Uranium deal thing of which even Shepherd Smith practically says is a load of bunk.

Fox News' Shepherd Smith debunks his network's Hillary Clinton 'scandal' story, infuriates viewers

Not to mention sticking it to 99% of Americans with their tax deal combined with a sneaky Obamacare repeal.

1 Reply

@revelette1,

Quote:

I will agree that given the accusations against Bill Clinton, democrats as a whole really can't jump on the band wagon and call for Moore to step down.

Two points here. First, they don't have to do that as the PR mess is already blowing up the GOP. And the Dems would likely be better off electorally if Moore stays in because he's a lunatic. McConnell is acting as he is precisely because of the electoral dangers he sees in Moore's inclusion in the Senate - as another fruitcake representative of the GOP.

More importantly though, Dems certainly can call for Moore to step down. It's not that many Dems were too forgiving of Clinton's sexual behavior, but rather that if you hold some axiom which says that from here on out and forevermore, no members of a political party can honestly and honorably indict a member of the opposition party who's committed a crime or been morally deplorable because once upon a time Bill Clinton existed, that obviously isn't going to work.

3 Replies

I would suggest that the conservative operatives in this thread start a thread of their own about Mr. Clinton--who was impeached but was not convicted--but it would be a waste of my time. As good as my word on it, I started a thread about Mrs. Clinton and the Democratic Party.

The usual suspects from this thread did not show up. They really don't have a serious interest in the topics. Their purpose is to deflect this thread, and to bury any story about Plump, if they can pull it off. I really had no doubt about that, but that thread demonstrated the case.

1 Reply

@blatham,

blatham wrote:

. . . if you hold some axiom which says that from here on out and forevermore, no members of a political party can honestly and honorably indict a member of the opposition party who's committed a crime or been morally deplorable because once upon a time Bill Clinton existed, that obviously isn't going to work.

It would also be a tu quoque fallacy in operation. Moral turpitude on the part of Mr. Clinton does not excuse of justify moral turpitude on the part of Mr. Moore, nor of anyone else.

2 Replies

@revelette1,

revelette1 wrote:

Meanwhile, republicans are trying to distract from the Moore situation and the Trump administration/Russia ties by putting pressure on the Session to appoint a special counsel to look into that stupid Uranium deal thing of which even Shepherd Smith practically says is a load of bunk.

There is no attempt to distract. The goal here is to send Democrats to prison and ruin the lives of their families.

0 Replies

@blatham,

blatham wrote:

if you hold some axiom which says that from here on out and forevermore, no members of a political party can honestly and honorably indict a member of the opposition party who's committed a crime or been morally deplorable because once upon a time Bill Clinton existed, that obviously isn't going to work.

You hypocrites may wish that condemnation of your hypocrisy will not work. But people tend to find hypocrisy distasteful.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I would suggest that the conservative operatives in this thread start a thread of their own about Mr. Clinton--who was impeached but was not convicted--but it would be a waste of my time.

As long as Democrats want to try to condemn Republicans for the very things that they excused Clinton for, Clinton will be on-topic in this thread.

The notion that people who point out facts are "operatives" is funny.

Setanta wrote:

As good as my word on it, I started a thread about Mrs. Clinton and the Democratic Party.

The usual suspects from this thread did not show up. They really don't have a serious interest in the topics. Their purpose is to deflect this thread, and to bury any story about Plump, if they can pull it off. I really had no doubt about that, but that thread demonstrated the case.

That no one showed up in a new thread with few posters, and stayed in an active thread with many posters, does not mean they have no interest in talking about a subject.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Moral turpitude on the part of Mr. Clinton does not excuse of justify moral turpitude on the part of Mr. Moore, nor of anyone else.

It does when the people who want to condemn Mr. Moore felt that Mr. Clinton should be above the law.

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@blatham,

blatham wrote:

Quote:
thats about half a dozen a day. "Lies by the DOZEN J. Trump"
The Huckster President. This probably was, in America, inevitable.

It is really, really sad that this has happened. But, the fact that approximately 33% of America has normalized this and most at least act like they believe him. That really sucks! They repeated and created crap like Finn did above - total crap, here's some crapwipe Finn =:

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@blatham,

Quote:

More importantly though, Dems certainly can call for Moore to step down. It's not that many Dems were too forgiving of Clinton's sexual behavior, but rather that if you hold some axiom which says that from here on out and forevermore, no members of a political party can honestly and honorably indict a member of the opposition party who's committed a crime or been morally deplorable because once upon a time Bill Clinton existed, that obviously isn't going to work

Nevertheless, speaking only for myself, I am going to drop this whole harassment/rape accusations in political circles, it is endless circular debate on Clinton no matter who the subject at hand is.

1 Reply

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