192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 09:38 am
@ehBeth,
Honestly, I see no value in adding my voice to an ample chorus of critics, and it would be giving Trump too much consideration. To me he is only a symptom of a deeper problem. It serves little purpose to obsess about his every tweet. I'd rather focus on the relevant contemporary events that explain why this sore clown made it to the white house.
BillW
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 09:44 am
@blatham,
blatham, with this post I have suddenly realized that it is SCOTUS that directs the winds of Democracy in the USA. This is why it takes so long to redirect the ship of state.....
ehBeth
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 09:44 am
@Olivier5,
that's a different thread entirely
thack45
 
  4  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 09:46 am
Quote:
Just before jetting off on a 12-day trip to Asia Friday, reporters asked President Donald Trump what he remembered about a late March meeting in which, according to court documents, former foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos broached the idea of a meeting with Russian president Vladimir Putin,

"I don't remember much about that meeting," Trump responded. "It was a very unimportant meeting, took place a long time [ago], don't remember much about it."

Well, OK. A president has lots and lots of meeting with lots and lots of people. It's understandable that you'd forget some every once in a while. And, while Papadopoulos reportedly broached the idea of a Trump-Putin meeting -- and Attorney General Jeff Sessions shot it down -- "unimportant" is sort of in the eye of the beholder.

Unless, of course, you bragged that you had "one of the great memories of all time" a week ago. Which Trump did.
Before heading to a Dallas fundraiser, Trump spoke to the press about a wide variety of subjects including his own intellect. "People don't understand, I went to an Ivy League college. I was a nice student," Trump said. "I did very well. I'm a very intelligent person."
Later, pointing to his head, he added: "One of the great memories of all time."




http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/03/politics/donald-trump-memory/
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 09:46 am
@ehBeth,
I hapen to disagree. Hope you don't mind too much.
maporsche
 
  4  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 09:51 am
@Olivier5,
I hope you don't mind if I refuse to discuss the 2016 democratic primary campaign with you here then. Likely, I simply post a link to the other thread.

I don't think many besides Lash will either...so as long as you're ok with that.

If you really want to discuss it, rather than just complain about it, then you know what threat actual discussions can be held.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 09:52 am
BillW wrote:

Let me point out that I am positive that this meeting has been pointed out in other tRump staff meetings as one of the ones everybody needs to "forget"! Therefore, every guilty soul remembers this meeting!

Including tRump! Especially since it has been spotlighted by Mueller....

thack45 wrote:

Quote:
Just before jetting off on a 12-day trip to Asia Friday, reporters asked President Donald Trump what he remembered about a late March meeting in which, according to court documents, former foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos broached the idea of a meeting with Russian president Vladimir Putin,

"I don't remember much about that meeting," Trump responded. "It was a very unimportant meeting, took place a long time [ago], don't remember much about it."

Well, OK. A president has lots and lots of meeting with lots and lots of people. It's understandable that you'd forget some every once in a while. And, while Papadopoulos reportedly broached the idea of a Trump-Putin meeting -- and Attorney General Jeff Sessions shot it down -- "unimportant" is sort of in the eye of the beholder.

Unless, of course, you bragged that you had "one of the great memories of all time" a week ago. Which Trump did.
Before heading to a Dallas fundraiser, Trump spoke to the press about a wide variety of subjects including his own intellect. "People don't understand, I went to an Ivy League college. I was a nice student," Trump said. "I did very well. I'm a very intelligent person."
Later, pointing to his head, he added: "One of the great memories of all time."




http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/03/politics/donald-trump-memory/

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 09:56 am
@Olivier5,
as the dance girls say : ciao bella

Smile
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 09:58 am
@Olivier5,
The left wing universe is, of course, trying to ascertain what happened last election (not to mention what has happened in state houses). And there's a real immediacy in this task because of the consequences for governance, democracy and citizen well-being at both levels. Lots of smart people (and lots of money) have been working on this problem. But the problems are exceedingly complex and there's no magic silver bullet. The present power of the right in the US has arrived slowly over a period of a half century when organizations and institutions have been built up (with enormous funding) to reach this point. And those same strategies are being used now to further establish permanent political power and dominance. But let me focus on just one bit...
Quote:
“When you look at long-term successful political parties and movements, there is a message that is powerful and inspirational for people you are trying to reach,” said Tom Steyer, the California billionaire and Democratic activist. “If you look at the last few years in the Democratic Party, one of the questions legitimately is, ‘Is there a cohesive vision of what we are trying to accomplish?’” [...]

Sure. Obama obviously inspired huge numbers of Americans. So did Bill Clinton. A new candidate with similar talents and charisma could do the same. But upon that candidate's arrival, the enormous resources of the modern right will be put towards removing him/her from influence and effectivenss in following through on proposed policies (which is why dreams of what Sanders might have achieved are almost entirely delusional).

And we know from experience and from cognitive science research that humans very easily fall prey to negative stories and to some of their own worst impulses. It's true that good policies can be powerful. It's true that coherent messaging also can be powerful. But just look what happened with the ACA. Look at what happened with the Occupy movement. Sure, the Dems have to get better at this stuff - particularly now - but let's not continue to imagine that, in appealing to large groups of humans, we are dealing with rational processes here.

blatham
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 10:04 am
@thack45,
Quote:
"It was a very unimportant meeting, took place a long time [ago], don't remember much about it."

Later, pointing to his head, he added: "One of the great memories of all time."

Good catch, thack!

0 Replies
 
thack45
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 10:05 am
On the matter of parties, I often find myself wondering if, given the day and age we live in, the masses would finally dump the both of them. Trump's win had much to do with his populist, anti-politician message. Some people were willing to look past his wealth and general awfulness in hopes of something different, which was obviously a miscalculation. But if you run with that message, aren't surrounded by millionaires, and genuinely give a ****, well if these two party machines weren't around to steer public opinion... I dare to dream
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 10:06 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
“It is a misunderstanding to say he had no policies,” said Neera Tanden, a longtime Clinton policy advisor and president of the Center for American Progress, a liberal research and activist group. “He was able to communicate to working-class people that he was concerned about their plight.”

Future Democratic candidates, Tanden said, should learn from the way the party failed to communicate last year with Rust Belt workers well into middle age. Those voters heard from Trump that he was determined to stop jobs from moving out of the country. From the Clinton campaign, they heard talk of college affordability and raising the minimum wage.

“If you are making $25 an hour, but worried jobs would disappear, one of those messages is more immediate,” Tanden said.


The problem with this is that the Dems would essentially have to lie to their own constituents in order to convey the same message that Trump did. I can't countenance that even if it means losing elections. Telling white, middle-class voters in small towns in the Midwest that their jobs are 'coming back' is a flat-out lie. It was successful for Trump because these folks are largely uneducated, gullible and frankly desperate.

Trump DIDN'T have policies. He had no real plans for how to achieve the promises he made. He simply had a willingness to lie at every opportunity about it.

Cycloptichorn
blatham
 
  3  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 10:11 am
Voice From The Right
Quote:
David Frum‏Verified account @davidfrum 4h4 hours ago
President Trump is changing us. Had any predecessor said the things about FBI Trump said this AM, the country would have been convulsed.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 10:22 am
@blatham,
I agree, but it's pretty obvious to me that politics are not essentially rational. Science is the domain of rationality. Politics are the domain of human fears and hopes. A successful politician INVENTS the future. And of course the execution often falls shorts of the hopes. That's only natural. But democracy is not about building a purely rational state.

The politics of philosophers is that which nobody ever implements. --- Merleau-Ponty
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 10:25 am
@thack45,
Quote:
if these two party machines weren't around to steer public opinion... I dare to dream
Will not happen. New structures of the same sort would show up very quickly. Canada has a perfect historical example here. For more than a century, two parties dominated our politics, Liberals and Progressive Conservatives. But after Brian Mulroney's tenure in Ottawa, his party (PC) collapsed and disappeared. In fairly short order (and after some experimental structures tried to succeed) the social and commercial elements that had previously made up the PCs formed up a successful new party which went on to hold power for nine consecutive years.
maporsche
 
  4  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 10:34 am
@blatham,
Never in the history of 'first-past-the-post' election systems has there ever been a long-term successful third party.
thack45
 
  3  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 10:38 am
@blatham,
I can't count how many times I've read or heard some iteration of "if anyone else had said this...". Now there's nothing special about Trump, other than the newness of his completely nonchalant smattering of lies and deception, combined with genuine ineptitude, at every turn—and the lack of a playbook in dealing with that from a political perspective. So to me, this has little to do with Trump, but rather is a sign of the state of political division today. Simply put, I don't know that we as Americans have spitefully hated each other quite as much as we do right now. Civility and decency are only a necessity if there's competition right around the corner
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 10:41 am
@maporsche,
The way things are setting up right now in the political spectrum is that there is no middle, the place on the spectrum that rules and where I live. The middle is never the 3rd party. Then again, it is the majority party when it coalesces the right middle with the left middle, sooooooo - let's go for it?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 10:44 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I do think that a less naïve embrace of globalization could have helped. It's never an obligation to lower tarrifs with everyone and everybody. Rather, it's an ideology. The dems should IMO clearly state that the state can try and protect jobs and aim to strengthen the job market; that the rich needs to be taxed more, not less; that corporate influence on Washington should be severely curtailed. Clarity of purpose is important, and these are not lies.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Fri 3 Nov, 2017 10:45 am
@blatham,
I'll disagree pretty strongly here. I think looking at the official opposition parties over past 25 years shows more than two significant parties. Most importantly (to a lot of us Canajun political dweebs) - Gilles Duceppe and Lucien Bouchard. If they'd been able to run nationally, there's a reasonable chance that the Bloc could have led Canada - at least briefly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Leaders_of_the_Official_Opposition_(Canada)

__

of course you see more of the three and four-way party influence splits in some of the provinces

__

Canada is more like Europe in this way than it is like the US.

___

the US system doesn't allow for the same type of political shift



 

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