192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
Debra Law
 
  2  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 11:55 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I remember ithe construction of the Islamic Center, to which Blatham refers, very well. The Center is located In Washington on Massachusets Ave. just south of the high bridge over the Rock Creek gorge. My dad drove me by it on our way to his office and my school (which is also near the Capitol) most mornings. It's a beautiful structure, that was financed by Saudi Arabia - a country that permits no religious freedon whatever to non non Muslims and even treats its own Shia minority rather badly - as my dad then pointed out to me. This was also the period of enormous infrastructure development by Saudia Arabia all done by U.S. firms. Our strategy then was to keep the mideast oil resources firmly aligned to the West and avaialble to our allies ( we were still energy independent then). As Ibn Saud's hold on the country was then tenuous, this strategy suited both partners quite well.


From the time of the earliest settlements in North America, it is common knowledge that people migrated to this continent to escape religious persecution elsewhere. It has long been settled that the great powers of government in this land shall be directed at actions (conduct) and not beliefs. The freedom to hold one's own religious beliefs is enshrined in our Constitution.

President Eisenhower was correct in his assurances that the Islamic Center is "just as welcome as could be a similar edifice of any other religion." If you are insinuating there are no such assurances under our Constitution and none would be offered but for the interests of American corporations abroad and our desire for foreign oil, you are mistaken.


Quote:
I am perplexed by this post of Blatham's, following so closely on his earlier post announcing a firm "**** you" to all religion and all religious believers. It makes his real motivations here very hard to guess. Indeed the only consistent model I can find is one involving the use of anything he can find to criticize, or cast doubt on, the ability and integrity of those he opposes politically ( that vast right wing movement conspiracy against which he imagines him self in a lonely but heroic battle.).


You seek to create a quandary where none exists. You are not perplexed. Anyone who has a cursory knowledge of logical fallacies knows that you built a straw man to attack. Blatham did not say "F__ you" to all religion and religious believers. His condemnation was directed toward a very small (and small-minded) class of persons who use their religious beliefs to justify unlawful conduct that causes harm to both the victim and our society.

So, what are YOUR true motivations for creating the straw man? Oh ... maybe so you can say this:


Quote:
This also provides an excellent illustration of the banality and mindless stupidity of contemporary political correctitude....


No, this was an "excellent illustration" of you attacking a straw man that you created.

It is not "mindless stupidity" to recognize this basic truth about persons within our national borders: You are free to believe what you want, but you are not entirely free to act on your beliefs. See, e.g., Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145, 164 (1878)(Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order).

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/98/145/case.html

The point you evaded through your verbal gymnastics is the demonization of an entire religion and all the persons who subscribe to that religion. It's creating an enemy where none exists for nefarious purposes. And we must be vigilant lest Trump (a proven serial liar who subscribes to "big lie" propaganda) becomes our next "war president" by ratcheting up irrational hate against Muslims.


Frugal1
 
  -1  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 12:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
True, but his tax plan will help the wealthy more than others.


His tax plan is great, and it will help everyone.

How many jobs do folks that are not wealthy create with their tax cuts?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 12:05 pm
@Debra Law,
You should read Balatham's '**** you' post on religion again: it appears you missed the obvious main points. My descriprions of Blatham and his arguments were entirely accurate.

As for the rest your "straw man" is an empty contrivance. Not much of a foundation for the weak "arguments" that flow from it.

Islam, in both it murderous and relatively benign forms is indeed confronting Western Civilization now - as our friends in the EU can attest. This is a challenge we face on many levels, individual, national and in terms of the values of Western Civilizations. Indeed in numerous ways its main religious/political (they make no distinction) spokesman have all confirmed this fact. Moreover it is itself highly intolerant of either alternate religious beliefs or none at all, and is highly intolerent of dissent in any form from within. Now that they have, on their own risen up to challenge us, it is clear , to the extent history is a guide, that only one of us will survive and dominate.

catbeasy
 
  2  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 12:31 pm
@tony5732,
Quote:
Well stated, but I wouldn't discount some of those bronze age farmers. We are STILL trying to figure out a lot of the really complicated things they figured out without our technology.

Yes, agreed. Please note though that I qualified that statement by indicating their values from their era and culture as compared with our current ones, the spirit of which was suggesting that we not BLINDLY follow their beliefs - just because 'it was written' etc. It is obvious to me that not all of their ideas were bad for us today..
tony5732
 
  -1  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 12:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Frugal is kinda right. Trickle down economics isn't a very popular with liberals, but that makes a lot more sense to me than the given alternative. Corporations are usually run by really smart people coming up with good ideas, bringing in opportunity and wealth into our economy.

These are people smart enough to go other places if our country doesn't provide fertile grounds for their businesses and ideas.

Debra Law
 
  4  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 12:58 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

You should read Balatham's '**** you' post on religion again: it appears you missed the obvious main points. My descriprions of Blatham and his arguments were entirely accurate.


Absolutely. I will look again. Please provide the text of Blatham's commentary (along with the link to the alleged post) that proves your allegation that Blatham said "F__ you" "to all religion and all religious believers".


georgeob1 wrote:
As for the rest your "straw man" is an empty contrivance. Not much of a foundation for the weak "arguments" that flow from it.

Islam, in both it murderous and relatively benign forms is indeed confronting Western Civilization now - as our friends in the EU can attest. This is a challenge we face on many levels, individual, national and in terms of the values of Western Civilizations. Indeed in numerous ways its main religious/political (they make no distinction) spokesman have all confirmed this fact. Moreover it is itself highly intolerant of either alternate religious beliefs or none at all, and is highly intolerent of dissent in any form from within. Now that they have, on their own risen up to challenge us, it is clear , to the extent history is a guide, that only one of us will survive and dominate.



It doesn't escape anyone's attention that you are demonizing Islam as a religion and the Muslims who subscribe to the religion. And now you're advocating complete annihilation of those you demonize (over a billion people) alleging "only one of us will survive and dominate." How does your fear mongering justify that particular contrivance? Have you gone mad?
Frugal1
 
  -1  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 01:14 pm
Demonizing Islam as a religion and the Muslims who subscribe to the religion is the right thing to do. **** them.
tony5732
 
  0  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 01:15 pm
@Frugal1,
That's not how we do things. Though I do understand your fear of the Muslim religion. It is scary.
Frugal1
 
  0  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 01:19 pm
@tony5732,
I do not fear muslim islamist, I recognize them as a threat that needs to be neutralized.
Fear is an emotion, recognizing & identifying a real threat has nothing to do with fear.
tony5732
 
  0  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 01:37 pm
@Frugal1,
So you don't like Muslims, Islamic Muslims, or is there a difference?
catbeasy
 
  1  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 01:41 pm
@ossobucotemp,
Quote:
What is this must have a proper referent to authority? Who told you that?

Well, if you are serious about this, reason tells me this. I would refer you to the video I posted as the argument is far too in depth for this format..but briefly, the referent is something you can actually point. At some point however, there is a place where we can go no further (also covered by Shelly in the video). But again, this isn't an argument about itself as an absolute, it is an argument contrasting two differing styles of validation and how much argument can possibly, rationally, potentially be generated as a result.

Quote:
Most people who don't have religious beliefs are absent of belief

This is a strange thing to say.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 01:47 pm
@tony5732,
Yep, it got a bad rep. If we did away with every trace of 'trickle down economics', went back to individuals deciding how to feed and care for themselves, more than half the world's population would promptly starve to death.
Frugal1
 
  0  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 01:48 pm
@tony5732,
I don't like people that are intent on destroying my way of life.

I recognize the threat to my country, and my pursuit of happiness.
Whatever label or name you choose to identify them is up to you.

0 Replies
 
Frugal1
 
  0  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 01:50 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
If we did away with every trace of 'trickle down economics', went back to individuals deciding how to feed and care for themselves, more than half the world's population would promptly starve to death.


I believe that is precisely why 0bama and his kind replaced TDE with 'trickle down misery'.
They want to kill off a large number of humans, that's what they do best.
catbeasy
 
  2  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 02:02 pm
@tony5732,
Quote:
So you don't like Muslims, Islamic Muslims, or is there a difference?

So, this argument about "All Muslims", "Some Muslims" etc is problematic..

Are you familiar with Functions in programming? If not, a function is a statement written to return some value (true/false, 1 or 0, or some descriptive value: "Killer Whales". These functions are then called by another program to do something with that value.

So that's the way I see this argument. Religious books are functions, they have many functions in them. Some return values of love, kindness and caring, others return devastation, murder and destruction.

The way I read them, Muslim and Christian books have these characteristics, these "functions". These functions can then be called by anyone subscribing to that religion. Which functions you choose to call will largely be determined by your circumstance, your economic situation, your upbringing, your peculiar energy etc..

So, the argument goes that it isn't Islam in particular that causes these things. That religion as contained in a book exists as a potential. People have to activate that potential per whatever functions they choose to pick out of their books.

By this argument, Christianity's bible is as much a terrorist book as the Quran.

So, one of the arguments being made on this board is that when you say Islamic Terrorism, you aren't saying much. What about Islamic people that aren't terrorists? Where do they fall? They of course are defacto lumped in
with the Islamic Terrorists..Indeed, how to sort out "the good from the bad".

This doesn't even get into the argument about those who accept the designation "Islamic Terrorism" and their betrayal of their own standards by refusing to call terrorism committed by Christians, "Christian Terrorism".

Although I haven't done a comprehensive search, my bet is that you'd be hard pressed to find an article on the war in Northern Island described by Western Press as Christian Terrorism. The most you'd get is maybe "A religious war".

Same with the KKK who were ostensible Christian. There is no mainstream description that I'm aware of calling them Christian Terrorists. Indeed, some of the excuses I've personally heard are that those KKK members are "Not really Christian". Yet no such 'relief' is given to Islam..

This reminds me of a recent argument by a famous rapper, blanking on who it was, that defended his use of the word "bitches" in his lyrics, insisting he was only referring to women who were indeed "bitches".
blatham
 
  2  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 02:12 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I am perplexed by this post of Blatham's, following so closely on his earlier post announcing a firm "**** you" to all religion and all religious believers.

I stopped reading your post right there because that is not what I said.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 02:25 pm
@tony5732,
Quote:
I think there might be a difference in what trump does in his business and what trump does running the United States.

It's inevitable that there will be differences because he will be constrained in this office far more so than in his private business empire. But it is already apparent by refusal to release his tax returns and his refusal to follow norms re emoluments that his consistent past behaviors/values will mark his presidency in an unprecedented manner and that personal wealth/family wealth is the motivation.

Quote:
The man understands money, but he isn't taking office for money. He already got his.

That's not a reasonable assumption. You or I might well be satisfied with a million or three but obviously many who crave wealth are not even satisfied with a billion or five of them.

Quote:
there is really no way to tell what he is going to do (good or bad), until he does it.

The refusals re taxes and failure to put his empire in a blind trust separated from self and family are things already done.
0 Replies
 
Frugal1
 
  0  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 02:28 pm
@catbeasy,
Quote:
Same with the KKK who were ostensible Christian. There is no mainstream description that I'm aware of calling them Christian Terrorists. Indeed, some of the excuses I've personally heard are that those KKK members are "Not really Christian". Yet no such 'relief' is given to Islam..


The KKK is, and always has been a democrat organization... liberal progressive democrats give Islam 'relief', and that's why the problem with Islamic Muslims continues to grow.
0 Replies
 
ossobucotemp
 
  1  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 02:29 pm
@catbeasy,
I thought I was clear. Atheists don't need a proper referent for authority.
Who needs validation for not believing?

That's enough for me, this thread is about Trump.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Fri 23 Dec, 2016 02:30 pm
@Debra Law,
I wonder if Debra (or Blatham) watched the video published today of two Turkish soldiers, evidently captured in Syria, being burned alive by their Islamic state captors. This of course was also the fate met by an unfortunate Jordanian pilot also captured by this same group. These events and the years long parade of decapitations of soldiers, reporters and innocent captives plus the reports of mass killings on the part of Islamist fanatics from Syria and Iraq, and across Africa to Nigeria and other states, should suggest to a reasonable observer, still in the posession of his capacity to think and evaluate the situation around him, that the Western World does indeed face a serious and continuing threat from a profoundly different culture that has chosen to make us their avowed enemy.

No nation of which I am aware ( not even Canada) recognizes the right of any foreign national to enter and reside in the country. Indeed every nation claims the right to discriminate on the source and status of any potential immigrant.

In the face of these facts the sappy complaints of the preachers of political correctitude here, regarding Trump's supposedly wrongful discrimination against Moslem immigrants, deserve only our contempt.
 

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