192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
snood
 
  2  
Fri 9 Jun, 2017 10:28 pm
@Debra Law,
So Debra Law, it's not incorrect that all that's required for obstruction to be charged is proving an attempt to influence or obstruct?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Fri 9 Jun, 2017 10:30 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:
You haven't read the laws for yourself? You both should look up and read all of the federal laws on obstruction. Pay attention to the word "endeavor" when you read it ... right there ... in statutory law. Unless, of course, you're reading 18 USC 1512(c). There you will find the word "attempt" instead of "endeavor". Self education is a wonderful thing. Try it.

I've looked them over. It was noteworthy how nothing that Trump is accused of doing fits any of the categories.
Debra Law
 
  3  
Fri 9 Jun, 2017 10:32 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Well if you have training in the law you should be able to mount a better counter-argument than a sneering dismissal of someone with a legal pedigree that I fully suspect dwarfs your own.

Keep searching the internet though. Some liberal legal scholar is bound to try and you can parrot his or her argument.


I don't care about your source's pedigree. I don't care that you didn't actually address my post and instead sought to demean me. I don't care about the lemon drop that you mysteriously find to be superb. I don't have to waste my time on "pressure isn't obstruction". That's like saying pressuring your employee for a blowjob by threatening her job isn't sexual harassment. I don't have to accept that unsupported statement.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Fri 9 Jun, 2017 10:36 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:
I don't care that you didn't actually address my post and instead sought to demean me.

Addressing your posts just elicits name-calling from you. There is little point.


Debra Law wrote:
"pressure isn't obstruction". That's like saying pressuring your employee for a blowjob by threatening her job isn't sexual harassment.

No it isn't.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Fri 9 Jun, 2017 11:01 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
More appropriate to outlaw the Democratic Party.


It's getting to be pretty painfully obvious at this point, anybody who would vote for a Democrat for anything is not doing the gene pool any favors. Outlawing and banning the Democrat party would be a completely reasonable thing to do.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Fri 9 Jun, 2017 11:09 pm
@oralloy,
The most obvious place to start might be Californicatia. Sooner or later, the United States has to retake that place; we can't simply let the place go, would have to build 100 foot high wall around and even that might not suffice. An obvious first step if you could do it would be to deport ALL of the illegal aliens but a very much simpler and easier step would be to, on a national level, implement some totally foolproof voting system which would prevent illegals from voting and the first place I would go looking for something like that would [email protected], which amounts to block chain technology being used for voting. That simple step by itself might return Californicatia to being a red state. At the same time major effort should be made to shut down every kind of fraudulence scheme which the Democrats use including Brown shirt type tactics which have resulted in Republican tickets receiving zero votes in entire precincts in and around Philadelphia for instance, and he goes on from there. Alex Jones claims the Democrats stole five states in last November's election and, fortunately, they were simply swimming against the tidal wave, but we can't count on that happening repeatedly.

Basically, if you could shut down all of the Democrats illegal activities, then you have basically defanged them.

0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  0  
Fri 9 Jun, 2017 11:46 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

In any case, not being the subject of an investigation is not proof of innocence.


You're American, right?

presumption of innocence
Quote:
One of the most sacred principles in the American criminal justice system, holding that a defendant is innocent until proven guilty. In other words, the prosecution must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, each essential element of the crime charged.


Not being under investigation is pretty damned good assurance that one isn't guilty. If not guilty, then they must be innocent.
layman
 
  1  
Fri 9 Jun, 2017 11:55 pm
@McGentrix,
Yeah, Gent, and put yet another way, "proof of innocence" is NEVER required. But that seems to be the standard he expects Trump to be held to, for some damn reason, eh?

In true fascist form, he has completely turned it around. Once allegations are made, however flimsy, you're presumed guilty, and are found guilty, unless you can PROVE you're innocent. There are countries who operate that way. We aint one of them, though.

Countries aside, there are people who think that way. They aint reasonable people, though.

Amazingly, some of those people are administrators on college campuses in this country where, if a female accuses a male of rape, he will be expelled unless he can prove he didn't to it (not likely to be possible)>
lmur
 
  4  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 12:51 am
@McGentrix,
Assume that coveting thy neighbour's wife was a criminal offence. I am currently not under investigation for this. Therefore I am innocent.

That's my reading of Hightor's post.
layman
 
  0  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 02:06 am
Left-wing Harvard Law professor, Alan Dershowitz:

Alan Dershowitz wrote:
The president can, in theory, decide who to investigate, who to stop investigating, who to prosecute and who not to prosecute. The president is the head of the unified executive branch of government, and the Justice Department and the FBI work under him and he may order them to do what he wishes.

As a matter of law, Comey is 100 percent correct. As I have long argued, and as Comey confirmed in his written statement, our history shows that many presidents—from Adams to Jefferson, to Lincoln, to Roosevelt, to Kennedy, to Bush 1, and to Obama – have directed the Justice Department with regard to ongoing investigations. The history is clear, the precedents are clear, the constitutional structure is clear, and common sense is clear.

Yet virtually every Democratic pundit, in their haste to “get” President Trump, has willfully ignored these realities. In doing so they have endangered our civil liberties and constitutional rights.

Now that even former Director Comey has acknowledged that the Constitution would permit the president to direct the Justice Department and the FBI in this matter, let us put the issue of obstruction of justice behind us once and for all...

Director Comey’s testimony was thoughtful, coherent and balanced. He is obviously angry with President Trump, and his anger has influenced his assessment of the president and his actions. But even putting that aside, Comey has provided useful insights into the ongoing investigations...

I write this short op-ed as Comey finishes his testimony. I think it is important to put to rest the notion that there was anything criminal about the president exercising his constitutional power to fire Comey and to request – “hope” – that he let go the investigation of General Flynn. Just as the president would have had the constitutional power to pardon Flynn and thus end the criminal investigation of him, he certainly had the authority to request the director of the FBI to end his investigation of Flynn.

So let’s move on and learn all the facts regarding the Russian efforts to intrude on American elections without that investigation being impeded by frivolous efforts to accuse President Trump of committing a crime by exercising his constitutional authority.


http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/06/08/dershowitz-comey-confirms-that-im-right-and-all-democratic-commentators-are-wrong.html

In legal circles and parlance "frivolous" is a pretty powerful word which suggests that charges are being made in bad faith and should be dismissed without any serious consideration, as I understand it.

As Dershowitz points out, the constitution itself gives the president the unreviewable power to pardon (and this has been SERIOUSLY, yet inalterably, abused by past presidents, probably most notably Bill Clinton). In light of that, it is absurd to contend that a president doesn't have the power to terminate an investigation.

Dershowitz was NEVER a Trump supporter. He is a democrat (he says he voted for Hillary Clinton), but even he can't help but observe that "virtually every Democratic pundit, in their haste to “get” President Trump, has willfully ignored these realities."

Nice try, cheese-eaters.
layman
 
  -2  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 02:46 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Do you care to cite the portion of the constitution in which the president is given that authority? Or are you, in fact, whistling past the graveyard because you're just as ignorant of the constitution as President Plump?

There, you've been spoon-fed with information that is obvious to anyone with sense or an elementary knowledge of civics, and which you could easily have acquired on your own. Your need to even ask about it raises serious questions.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 02:54 am
@oralloy,
Quote:

If it was no big deal for Bill Clinton to do it, then it is no big deal for Trump to do it.

No big deal? He was impeached, wasn't he? For only the second time in our country's ignoble history.
giujohn
 
  -1  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 02:54 am
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

Quote:
They are not HIS memos, they are work product and covered under 18 USC 641.


Can you prove your statement? How do you know those memos would be covered under the number you cited? Are you some kind of expert on the subject? Comey took it upon himself to write the memos. It is not as though writing the memos was some kind of official duty like filling out a report or something.


In as much as I was a federal law enforcement officer and am presently a federal employee, yes, I am an expert.

As a federal employee of a cabinet level agency, we are required yearly to go through TMS training. That is one of the subjects covered.

Comey was documenting an incident while engaged in his official duties and did so on a government encrypted laptop. He further briefed FBI leadership as to the content. That all makes it work product and subject to 641.


The United States Department of Justice
U.S. Attorneys

U.S. Attorneys » Resources » U.S. Attorneys' Manual » Criminal Resource Manual » CRM 1500-1999 » Criminal Resource Manual 1601-1699

1638. Embezzlement Of Government Property -- 18 U.S.C. § 641

In Moore v. United States, 160 U.S. 268, 269 (1895), the Supreme Court defined embezzlement in the following terms:

Embezzlement is the fraudulent appropriation of property by a person to whom such property has been entrusted, or into whose hands it has lawfully come. It differs from larceny in the fact that the original taking was lawful, or with the consent of the owner, while in larceny the felonious intent must have existed at the time of the taking.
There are six elements to the crime of embezzlement, as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 641. These are: (1) a trust or fiduciary relationship between the defendant and the property owner; (2) the property taken falls within the statute; i.e., it must be government property (see this Manual at 1643 for a discussion of the types of property which fall within this section);

(SEE BELOW)

(3) the property came into the possession or care of the defendant by virtue of his employment; (4) the property belonged to another, in this case the United States; (5) the defendant's dealings with the property constituted a fraudulent conversion or appropriation of it to his own use; and (6) the defendant acted with the intent to deprive the owner of the use of this property. See United States v. Dupee, 569 F.2d 1061 (9th Cir. 1978); United States v. Powell, 294 F. Supp. 1353, 1355 (E.D.Va.), aff'd, 413 F.2d 1037 (4th Cir. 1968).

The requirement that the defendant act with the intent to deprive the owner of his property makes embezzlement a specific intent crime. See United States v. May, 625 F.2d 186, 189-90 (8th Cir. 1980). It should be noted, however, that the intent required to violate the law is not an intent to deprive another of his property permanently. Therefore, even if an individual intends to return the property, his actions are still criminal. In short, restitution is no defense to embezzlement. See United States v. Powell, 294 F. Supp. at 1355.



1643. Definition -- Property Protected By 18 U.S.C. 641

The property encompassed by 18 U.S.C. § 641 is also defined in broad terms. Section 641 protects "any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof."

Generally, jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. § 641 turns on the nature of the government's interest in the property which has been stolen. If that interest is sufficient, federal jurisdiction attaches; if it is not sufficient, the prosecution must be deferred to the state or local authorities. The question of whether the United States has sufficient interest in some property to trigger jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. § 641 arises in a wide variety of factual context.

Comeys professor buddy is also in violation of:


1642. Concept -- Receiving, Concealing Or Retaining Stolen Property

Section 641 of Title 18 also prohibits receipt of stolen government property. There are five elements to the offense: the defendant must receive, conceal or retain; stolen property; belonging to the United States; knowing that the property has been embezzled, stolen, purloined or converted; and with the intent to convert that property to his own use or gain. See United States v. Fench, 470 F.2d 1234 (D.C.Cir.), cert. denied, 410 U.S. 909 (1972); Teel v. United States, 407 F.2d 604 (8th Cir. 1969).

At the outset, it should be noted that the conduct proscribed by this section is set forth in the disjunctive. Thus, a defendant violates the law when he either "receives, " "conceals" or "retains" stolen property. None of these words are terms of art and they should be given their normal construction.

The intent requirement of this section presents more serious problems. Prosecutions for receiving stolen property require proof of a compound state of mind. First, the defendant must know that the property he has received, concealed or retained is stolen. Note, however, that the defendant need not know that the property was stolen from the United States. See Baker v. United States, 429 F.2d 1278 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 400 U.S. 957 (1970). Ownership of the property by the United States is simply a jurisdictional requirement and is not relevant to the criminal intent needed to violate the law.

The defendant must also act with the intent to convert the property to his own use. Thus, this offense is a specific intent crime. Proof of this intent, however, does not require evidence showing that the defendant actually derived some benefit from the property. This element is satisfied merely by showing that the defendant intended to convert some property to his personal gain. See United States v. Hinds, 662 F.2d 362, 369 n. 15 (5th Cir. 1981), cert. denied, 455 U.S. 1022 (1982).
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  4  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 02:59 am
@McGentrix,
Quote:
Not being under investigation is pretty damned good assurance that one isn't guilty. If not guilty, then they must be innocent.

Hmm...interesting take on it. But I disagree — innocence is meaningless unless indictments leading to charges are involved. The law says the speed limit on a causeway that I drive on a nearly daily basis is 40 mph. I've admittedly hit speeds of 50 mph or more on this route. I haven't been caught (yet) and as far as I know I am not the subject of an investigation — but I would not claim to be "innocent".
hightor
 
  4  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 03:05 am
Geoffrey Kabaservice is the author of “Rule and Ruin: The Downfall of Moderation and the Destruction of the Republican Party, From Eisenhower to the Tea Party.”:

Quote:
(...)

I have quite a few friends who are avid consumers of Trump-supporting alt-right “news” websites, but I have yet to find one who actually believes in the wilder fantasies they purvey. For example, no one I know thought there was any truth to the Pizzagate conspiracy theory propagated by Infowars.com (among others) that a Washington pizza parlor was the center of a child sex ring linked to members of the Democratic Party. As one Infowars reader I know from high school told me, “To take Pizzagate seriously, you’d have to be mentally disturbed” — which may well have been the case for the young man who came to the restaurant armed with an assault rifle to “self investigate” the false claims.

Many Trump supporters engage nonetheless in a willing suspension of disbelief when they partake of right-wing media. They enjoy the ridiculous exaggerations and outright lies for the outrage they provoke in Democrats, liberals, intellectuals and pompous commentators of all political stripes.

Populist conservatives also appreciate fake news for conveying what they see as underlying symbolic truths. Barack Obama is not actually a Muslim, but those who called him one were pointing toward what they saw as his cosmopolitanism, racial otherness and seeming discomfort with “real” America. Democratic officials do not actually run sex rings, but for fake-news readers they are part of the corrupt and all-powerful government that exploits helpless citizens for fun and profit. Climate change science is not actually a hoax concocted by China and the scientific community, but many see it as serving the interests of globalists from both parties who allowed the devastation of American manufacturing and the working class.

(...)

NYT
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 03:08 am
Well, alla y'all are gunna wish to had been nicer to me now, eh? I done hit the jackpot!

But don't come around expecting me to share nothing with you, cheese-eaters. Homey don't play dat.

I've been talking to a NYT reporter for a couple of weeks now and he finally agreed to pay me for my story. Strictly anonymous, of course. He thinks I'm a high-ranking leader in the BLM organization, the chump.

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 03:08 am
@lmur,
You are correct. You are not a defendant.

Quote:
...a defendant is innocent until proven guilty.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  -1  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 03:16 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Do you care to cite the portion of the constitution in which the president is given that authority? Or are you, in fact, whistling past the graveyard because you're just as ignorant of the constitution as President Plump?


Article 2, section 3;

..."he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, "...
layman
 
  -1  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 03:19 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:

If it was no big deal for Bill Clinton to do it, then it is no big deal for Trump to do it.

No big deal? He was impeached, wasn't he? For only the second time in our country's ignoble history.

Was he convicted?
hightor
 
  5  
Sat 10 Jun, 2017 03:44 am
@layman,
You don't remember?

Mr. Clinton was quite popular at the time and impeachment, which is a political not a legal process, was seen as sufficient. The Senate could not muster the 67 votes needed for conviction.

I hope, failing some truly earthshaking discovery, that impeachment charges aren't brought against Mr. Trump. I'd settle for "censure" (is that possible?) or something on that order. The guy's inexperienced and temperamentally challenged, with little understanding of the law. A stern admonition from Congress (unlikely) resulting in an expression of contrition on his part (even more unlikely) would suit me. Followed by a mass expulsion of Freedom Kooks in the next election.
 

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