17
   

Here's what happened to people without health insurance since Obamacare

 
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 12:33 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

You might wish to examine the statistics for average survival rates and longevity for serious diseases for Canada, the UK and the US. That's a fairly convincing story.


it is indeed

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/why-canadians-outlive-americans-and-why-we-shouldnt-be-so-satisfied/article16147153/

Quote:
Here’s a fact most Canadians probably don’t know: Canadians live longer than people in the United States. Specifically, women in Canada live an average of 83 years, compared to 80 in the U.S.; men live more than 78 years on average compared to 75 in the United States. Why is this the case? There are clear links between mortality rates and the way countries invest in health care and improving social conditions.

Recently, we published a study in the American Journal of Public Health on the efficiency of health care systems at extending lives over the past two decades – and it’s good news for Canadians. For every additional hundred dollars spent on health care in Canada, per capita, life expectancy was extended by nearly two months. The same expenditures were only associated with less than half a month of increased life expectancy in the United States.

The study assessed the gains in life expectancy from health spending in 27 countries, as well as across genders within each nation. After controlling for economic development, social expenditures, and behavior, we found significant differences in international levels of efficiency. Canada ranked 8th of 27 countries, while the U.S. came in at 22nd.


we still want things to get better here, but we've got the US beat

abstract for the study referenced above

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2013.301494?journalCode=ajph


the UK is also above the US re life expectancy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-14070090

Quote:
While life expectancy in the US continues to improve, says the report by researchers at University of Washington in Seattle and Imperial College, London, it is not increasing as quickly as in other Western countries, so the gap is widening.


"The researchers suggest that the relatively low life expectancies in the US cannot be explained by the size of the nation, racial diversity, or economics," says the document, which ranks the US 38th in the world for life expectancy overall.

"Instead, the authors point to high rates of obesity, tobacco use and other preventable risk factors for an early death as the leading drivers of the gap between the US and other nations."


"We weren't surprised that we had lower life expectancies than other countries, but we were surprised by the fact that we were falling further behind," says Dr Ali Mokdad, professor of global health at the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington.


Take a country like Australia, he says. "It also has a nation of immigrants. It also is a relatively young country. It has similar socioeconomic characteristics.
"It has an obesity problem, and yet it has continued to improve in life expectancy and remains one of the healthiest nations in the world."
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 12:42 pm
@ehBeth,
Odd that you addressed everything EXCEPT the point I made.

Take a look at international health statistics (The CIA world Fact book is one good source. Life expectancy is very strongly correlated with GDP/capita, but among highly developed countries there are distributed, very small differences among nations that appear to defy the presence or absense of gocernment systems and be the result of opther factors of which there are many.

For governments with public health systems there is a strong incentive to raise life erxpectancy by rationing care to the sick and old - simple arithnmetic. Hope you like it.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 12:44 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Odd that you addressed everything EXCEPT the point I made.


I responded directly to what you said.

I can't begin to imagine what you thought you were saying - but I quoted you.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 12:44 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

They never seem to remember that Reid kept over 200 bills from the GOP controlled House tied up in committees and refused a vote on them. This never enters into their "gridlock" comments. They see an end to "gridlock" as the Dems getting their way and everything Obama wants being rubber stamped with total approval by Congress. CI wants to end "gridlock" but only if the left gets their way.


Ok, so this is your version of a "but they did it too!!!" argument. I keep hearing that it's a poor argument (at least when it's in relation to the email scandal) but whatever I suppose.

Anyway, I'd bet a significant amount of money that Reid's congress was more productive than this current one.

What's your explanation for this current congress being the MOST non-productive in a very long time (maybe ever)?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 12:45 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Take a look at international health statistics


If you'd like to present a source with a link, I will certainly look at it.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 12:46 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
For governments with public health systems there is a strong incentive to raise life erxpectancy by rationing care to the sick and old - simple arithnmetic.


Oddly enough, it's not what happens in countries like Canada and Germany.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 12:48 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
to raise life erxpectancy


Did you actually read any of the references about how life expectancy is increased in other countries?

Good solid research going back decades (some of it is the great work based in Blacksburg , VA) on the subject is available if you're interested in increasing your knowledge in this area.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 12:50 pm
@ehBeth,
@georgeob1

I see the problem. You're not familiar with the definition of longevity.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 12:53 pm
http://www.canadianliving.com/health/prevention-and-recovery/article/20-tips-to-increase-your-longevity

Quote:

You can't control genetics, but there are plenty of things you can do to increase the probability of living to a ripe old age. "At the end of the day The New England study showed that lifestyle, diet, mental attitude and spiritual disposition play the biggest roles in longevity,"

Hope to live to 100? Heed the following 20 tips and you just might make it.

1. Stay trim: Extra weight puts you at risk for heart attack, diabetes, cancer and other diseases that can shave years off your life.

2. Eat well and prosper: You know the drill – 10 servings of fruits and veggies a day (the more colourful the better), lots of whole grains and cut down on salt, fat and sugar.

3. Don't smoke: Need we say more?

4. Have kids later: A woman who bears a child after age 40 has four times of a greater chance of living to 100 than women who give birth earlier in life, according to NECS.


5. Feed your head: Do crosswords, learn a new language, take up a hobby, attend a lecture and figure out how to Twitter and Skype. All these things will keep your mind engaged.

6. Stay fit: Regular exercise keeps your body strong and is the best insurance against disease and injury.

7. Be the life of the party: Or at least maintain social connections by having close ties with friends and family. Such connections can help ward off depression, boost your body's immune system and help you live longer.

8. Develop stress-busting habits: Walk, meditate, talk to a friend or play music. Learn stress management, as it's one of the keys to disease prevention.

9. Lend a helping hand: Volunteering makes you happier, healthier and live a longer life. Studies from the U.S. Corporation for National and Community Service show a strong link between volunteering and longevity.

10. Get married: Plenty of studies show that married folks live longer than their unmarried counterparts. And marriage is especially beneficial for men – a 2010 study from Germany's Ruhr Graduate School in Economics found married men were 6 per cent more likely to go to the doctor – probably because their wives encouraged them to have a regular checkup.

11. Have more sex: An active sex life is closely connected with a longer life. A 2010 report in the American Journal of Cardiology shows that men who have sex two or three times a week have a lower risk of heart disease by 45 per cent.

12. Laughter really is the best medicine: A University of Maryland study found that 15 minutes of laughter a day can improve blood flow to the heart by 50 per cent, which helps reduce heart disease.

13. Keep your cool: "He that can have patience, can have what he will," said Benjamin Franklin. That may include a longer life. Men who frequently express anger are more than twice as likely to have a stroke than those who control their tempers, according to a 1999 study reported in the journal Stroke.


14. Get the right amount of shut-eye: A 2002 study conducted by the Scripps Clinic Sleep Center in California on the sleep habits of one million Americans found people who sleep between six and a half and seven and a half hours a night live the longest. It also found that people who sleep eight hours or more, or less than six and a half hours, don't live quite as long.

15. Take a daily multivitamin: A report from Harvard Medical School advises a regular dose of supplements, including calcium and vitamin D, can help lengthen life.

16. Daily flossing can add years to your life: Poor oral health is related to a higher risk of heart disease and stroke. Studies done at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, with the Centers for Disease Control, indicated that people with gingivitis and periodontitis have a mortality rate that is 23 to 46 per cent higher than those who don't.

17. Play fetch with Fido: People who have pets are less lonely and depressed and also get more exercise, all of which can add years to their lives.

18. Be part of a spiritual community: Many large-scale studies show that people who regularly attend religious services live longer, happier and healthier lives.

19. Have a regular medical checkup: Many diseases such as diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease can be treated or even prevented if caught early enough.

20. Look for blue skies: One quality most centenarians share is optimism. If you want to live a long life, your attitude counts.



the daily flossing thing's been in dispute lately, but it feels good so I'll keep on keeping on with that
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 12:56 pm
@maporsche,
You don't need to bet; this is one of the most unproductive congress in modern/contemporary times.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  0  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 12:57 pm
@maporsche,
Nope, not a "but they did it too" comment. It's more of a comment that when Reid was keeping GOP bills from being voted on, it wasn't "gridlock" then, but it is now that the Dems are in the minority.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 01:06 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

Nope, not a "but they did it too" comment. It's more of a comment that when Reid was keeping GOP bills from being voted on, it wasn't "gridlock" then, but it is now that the Dems are in the minority.


I believe I heard plenty from your side calling it gridlock then.

So your only argument here is basically "the party only complains about actions when the other party does it but not when their own party does it."

Well, my mind is ******* blown Baldimo. I've NEVER seen such a thing in politics before.

It sure sounds an awful lot like a "but they did it too" argument.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 01:11 pm
georgeob1 wrote:

You might wish to examine the statistics for average survival rates


it gets more interesting (and better outside the US)

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cancer-care-in-the-u-s-versus-europe/


A fascinating read for science/health/statistics folks

This is the last page or two

Quote:
Aaron Carroll also did me a favor and saved me a lot of work by compiling mortality rates for various cancers in G8 countries as another way to illustrate what is almost certainly closer to the real situation. The fact that he did it for years much more recent than the time period Philipson et al. did was rather curious, of course, but maybe not so much so given that more recent statistics show that most European countries have results much closer to those in the U.S. than 20 years ago. Be that as it may, Carroll points out that the U.S. is among the best in the world when it comes to breast cancer but not actually the best. Japan appears to be doing much better than the U.S. As a cancer surgeon, I will point out that breast cancer in Japan might be different, possibly due to lifestyle differences. In terms of other cancers, Carroll concludes that for cervical cancer, we’re in the middle of the pack; for colorectal cancer, we’re unequivocally doing the best; and for prostate cancer we’re in the high end of the middle of the pack. The most interesting observation is that for lung cancer we are doing abysmally. The obvious excuse for that is tobacco smoking, but it turns out that the U.S. has one of the lowest rates of tobacco use of these countries; so that doesn’t explain it. As Aaron’s last cancer graph shows graph when it comes to overall mortality from cancer, compared to the G8 countries, the U.S. is doing well but is not the best. As Aaron sums it up:

Not nearly where you’d like to see us. Because we don’t do as well with some of the more prevalent cancers, we wind up doing much worse overall when it comes to cancer mortality than you’d think. This is why, when some point to us having the “best” health care system, they focus on colon cancer or breast cancer, not on lung cancer. Overall, though, we’re not.


I can’t help but notice, too, that if you really want to compare countries with universal health care systems to the U.S. (and, let’s face it, that’s what this is really all about, trying to show that “socialized medicine” leads to “death panels,” health care rationing, and lower survival rates for deadly diseases like cancer), you really should include Japan in the mix. The problem, of course, is that Japan does a lot better than the U.S. in many areas. My point, however, is not to denigrate the U.S. healthcare system. It does quite well in some areas, not so well in others, and overall it’s very good but not spectacular, at least when we look at cancer mortality. The real problem is not that the U.S. system doesn’t deliver quality cancer care. Rather, the problem is that delivering that care in the U.S. is spectacularly expensive for the results it gets compared to other countries that spend considerably less.


Surprisingly (to me at least), there’s been some really good reporting that punctures the claims of this particular study. First, there’s this one, in which Steven Reinberg interviews Dr. Otis Brawley, the chief medical officer and executive vice president at the American Cancer Society. Dr. Brawley points out that, yes, overdiagnosis is likely the fatal confounder not accounted for by Philipson et al.

More impressive is Reuters article by Sharon Begley, in which she explains very well why this study doesn’t show what Philipson et al conclude that it shows. Also, unlike the case in some other posts and articles that I’ve seen dealing with this study, Begley doesn’t suggest that Philipson et al completely ignored lead time bias. In all fairness, before finishing, I have to state unequivocally they didn’t. The problem with their analysis is that they made a highly unconvincing argument using mortality statistics for why they don’t think lead time bias was a major confounder of their results. In fact, they did some rather amazing contortions to try to justify their approach of focusing on survival statistics instead of mortality rates, even to the point that they included an online supplement in which they examined mortality rates in the various countries included in their study. Here’s the problem with that argument, which is summed up very well in Begley’s article:

The Philipson team acknowledges that survival data can be misleading. They justify their approach, however, by saying that because deaths from cancer as a percentage of a country’s population fell faster in the United States than in 10 countries in Europe from 1982 to 2005, the higher U.S. survival “suggests that lead-time bias did not confound our results.”

Some experts in cancer statistics were not convinced.

“Why do the authors use the wrong metric – survival – in the analysis and then argue that the right measure – mortality – provides corroborating evidence?” asked Welch. “As long as your calculation is based on survival gains, it is fundamentally misleading.”

Indeed. I found that very curious myself, particularly how the justification was buried in an online supplement, rather than described in the text of the paper itself. It makes me wonder if it was something the authors cooked up to justify themselves after peer reviewers started hammering them on the issue of lead time bias. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if that were the case, although, again in all fairness, it might not be. Similarly, their lame argument that they chose increases in survival as their metric because it would allow them to compare each country to its baseline made me laugh. Do they seriously believe that following mortality trends over time wouldn’t allow them to compare each country to its baseline? Is it just me? Am I alone in finding such an argument … unconvincing?

In reality, there are two ways to study how well different countries are doing in terms of cancer care. One way is, as mentioned several times in this post, to focus on cancer mortality. Another way is much more difficult in that it involves comparing stage-specific survival rates, and, for cancers for which there are screening programs, survival rates for screen-detected cancers and survival rates for all cancers. The latter is an analysis that is very difficult to carry out, given that not all countries have good registries that have cases properly stratified by stage and that it wouldn’t be able to compare how countries are doing against all cancers overall, only individual cancers. Also, stage definitions change over time, and carrying out such an analysis would involve taking such changes into account—not an easy adjustment. Yet, Philipson et al. chose to do neither of these things; indeed, they picked the very metric for which confounding factors, such as lead time bias and overdiagnosis, tend to be the most problematic.

I wonder why.

More importantly, I wonder how this study ever passed peer review. One would think that Health Affairs would have at its disposal a cancer epidemiologist who understands overdiagnosis, lead time bias, and length bias to tap as a peer reviewer. I guess not.




certainly calls out the Koch and friends trigger words
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 01:14 pm
@maporsche,
Quote:
I believe I heard plenty from your side calling it gridlock then.

I don't think you did. What you would have heard was people like CI saying the GOP didn't do **** and created "gridlock". The truth was that Reid didn't allow any of the GOP House bills to get out of committee and be voted on. This is what was explained a few years ago. I've brought this up before but only in response to the left saying the GOP was being obstructionist.

Quote:
It sure sounds an awful lot like a "but they did it too" argument.

Of course that is the way you see it. The truth is a little different though.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 01:21 pm
@Baldimo,
Here you go Baldimo....PLENTY of news articles with the words "Reid" "Gridlock" and "Congress" only from the year 2012.

https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&biw=1527&bih=836&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2012%2Ccd_max%3A12%2F31%2F2012&tbm=nws&q=reid+gridlock+congress&oq=reid+gridlock+congress&gs_l=serp.3...72439.73828.0.74198.2.2.0.0.0.0.54.97.2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..0.0.0.roQ5e0J2TXc
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 01:37 pm
@maporsche,
Did you read any of the articles? I've read through 2 of them and in both cases it is talking about the GOP and not Reid. The articles only mention Reid in terms of him wanting to change the rules on the Senate floor to prevent GOP filibusters.

What the articles do talk about is Reid using a procedure called "filling the tree", which means:
Quote:
The convoluted procedure allows the majority leader to claim all opportunity for offering changes to a bill, effectively preventing any other senator from proposing an amendment intended to slow down legislation or force a politically embarrassing vote.


0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2016 06:30 pm
@maporsche,
Thanks for that link on Harry Reid and his gridlock congress. I'm one of those people who holds ideas for long periods of time without having full information. That's what I like about a2k; it continues to educate me.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2016 11:15 am
Ok, I have been ignoring mention of Bill Clinton and Obamacare, I thought maybe he did one of his zany numbers best left alone. However, I went to Mediamatters today and it posts exactly what Bill Clinton said regarding Obamacare and it makes absolute sense and in no way trashes Obamacare but just talks of a way to improve and build on the weakness of Obamacare of which has been talked about on this thread.

Quote:
Now the next thing is, we got to figure out now what to do on health care. Her opponent said, ‘Oh, just repeal it all. The market will take care of it.’ That didn’t work out very well for us, did it? We wound up with the most expensive system in the world and we insured the smallest percentage of people. On the other hand, the current system works fine if you’re eligible for Medicaid, if you’re a lower income working person, if you’re already on Medicare, or if you get enough subsidies on a modest income that you can afford your health care.

But the people that are getting killed in this deal are small businesspeople and individuals who make just a little too much to get any of these subsidies. Why? Because they’re not organized, they don’t have any bargaining power with insurance companies, and they’re getting whacked. So you’ve got this crazy system where all of a sudden, 25 million more people have health care and then the people that are out there busting it ― sometimes 60 hours a week ― wind up with their premiums doubled and their coverage cut in half. It’s the craziest thing in the world so here’s the simplest thing ― you raise your hands, you think about it ― here’s the simplest thing: figure out an affordable rate and let people use that ― something that won’t undermine your quality of life, won’t interfere with your ability to make expenses, won’t interfere with your ability to save money for your kid’s college education. And let people buy in to Medicare or Medicaid.

Here’s why: you can let people buy in for just a little bit because unlike where you are now, if you were on the other side of this, if you were an insurer, you’d say, ‘Gosh, I only got 2,000 people in this little pool. Eighty percent of insurance costs every year come from 20 percent of the people. If I get unlucky in the pool, I’ll lose money.’ So they overcharge you just to make sure, and on good years, they just make a whopping profit from the people who are least able to pay it.

It doesn’t make any sense. The insurance model doesn’t work here; it’s not like life insurance, it’s not like casualties, it’s not like predicting flooding. It doesn’t work. So Hillary believes we should simply let people who are above the line for getting these subsidies have access to affordable entry into the Medicare and Medicaid programs. They’ll all be covered, it will not hurt the program, we will not lose a lot of money. And we ought to do it. [Transcript of former President Bill Clinton speaking at a Hillary Clinton for President rally in Flint, Michigan, 10/3/15, via The Huffington Post]


source
0 Replies
 
 

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