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Let's talk about replacing GWBush in 2004.

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 06:07 am
dont pat yourself Scrat. Remeber, , after the scienceadvisory panel reported out the results of the MCL advisory, they aagreed with Clinton and so did whitman, so Bush ultimately flip flopped and signed the original As MCL that the Clinton White House originally reccomended. Thats one of the reasons that Whitman resigned, she couldnt go along with the Bush "science". It was bound by too much corporate input and not enough medicine and science

arsenic, at low levels, is still a proven caarcinogen that has a CUMULATIVE SOMATIC EFFECTand its primary target population is kids and compromised immune system folks.

Not that Clinton had a good record on environmetal action. He first gutted the Superfund Laws and turned the haz sites cleanup program into an unfunded mandate, which Bush gladly continued. Bush has done one step better, hes gotten science advisors around him who are mostly partisan cheerleaders first.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 10:29 am
Quote:
COLLOIDAL MINERALS
Arsenic

Although most commonly known for its toxic properties, arsenic (As), has been shown to have beneficial actions when fed in very small amounts to laboratory animals. Numerous studies with rats, hamsters, mini pigs, goats, and chicks have provided circumstantial evidence suggesting that arsenic is essential, but its physiological role has not been clearly defined. Recent work, however, indicates that arsenic may have a role in methionine metabolism.

Deficiencies: The most impressive reported sign of arsenic deficiency is death of goats during lactation because of disorders in heart muscle and, to a lesser extent, skeletal muscle. The most consistent signs of arsenic deprivation in rodents have been effects on methionine metabolism. Arsenic may be important under certain circumstances in humans. For example, arsenic, independent of omega-3 fatty acids, increases bleeding time. This imps that it may be a plausible candidate for the unknown factor in fish responsible for increased bleeding time. In addition, a recent human study suggested that arsenic homeostasis is altered by hemodialysis, and that low serum arsenic is correlated with central nervous system disorders, vascular disease, and cancer.

Diet recommendations: It is inappropriate at present to give dietary recommendations for arsenic for humans because of questions of its essentiality. Based on animal studies, however, amounts of arsenic in the diet that lead to signs of arsenic deficiency can be extrapolated to humans. The suggested arsenic requirement for animals is between 25 and 50 ng As/g (based on diets containing 4000 kcal/kg). Extrapolated to the human population, this dietary intake is equal to 12.5 to 25 µg As/day. Human diets normally contain 12 to 50 µg As/day. Thus, the postulated arsenic requirement for humans apparently can be met by typical diets. However, there may be dietary situations where the requirement for arsenic is not met (for example, low dietary arsenic coupled with an altered methionine metabolism or hemodialysis).

Food sources: Arsenic (inorganic and organic) in the diet is contributed by various foods including cereals and breads, 18.1%; starchy vegetables, 14.9%; and meats and fish, 32.1%. About 20% of the daily intake of arsenic is inorganic. Arsenic in water is almost all inorganic and most drinking water contains less than 10 µg As/L and, typically, 2 to 3 µg/L. Drinking water can contribute 20 µg inorganic As/day.

Toxicity: Toxicity of organic arsenicals, including compounds such as monomethylarsonic acid, dimethylarsenic acid, arsenobetaine, and arsenocholine, is low. Inorganic forms are more toxic than organic forms of arsenic; generally arsenite (+3) is more toxic than arsenate (+5). Signs of inorganic arsenic toxicity include dermatosis, hematopoietic depression, liver damage, sensory disturbances, peripheral neuritis, anorexia, and skin and internal cancers.

For further information:

Uthus, E.O. (1994) Arsenic essentiality and factors affecting its importance. In: Arsenic Exposure and Health (Chappell, W.R., Abernathy, C.O. & Cothern, C.R., eds.), pp. 199-208. Science and Technology Letters, Northwood, UK

Anke, M. (1986) Arsenic. In: Trace Elements in Human and Animal Nutrition (Mertz, W., ed.), pp. 347-372. Academic Press, Orlando, FL.


http://www.eagle-min.com/faq/faq94.htm
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 10:38 am
Albuquerque NM has an unusually high concentration of arsenic in its aquifer that we draw our drinking water from. Of course those who grew up on Albuquerque water and subsequently developed prostate cancer (the most prevalent cancer linked to arsenic) believe it was arsenic in the water that gave them cancer. But Albuquerque has an uncommonly high number of older residents who also grew up drinking Albuquerque water and there is no unusually high incidence of prostate cancer here. In other words, Albuquerque drinking water is deemed to be safe. To decrease arsenic levels any further would create a severe and unnecessary pressure on municipal resources.

Many substances, even many vitamins and minerals approved as dietary supplements, are toxic in large amounts. Salt has severe detrimental affects in too large quantities; yet we are much more likely to encounter sodium choloride in our water than toxic levels of arsenic.

And, as we know, some sodium choloride is essential to mammals and probably other species as well. So is, according to the information Scrat posted, arsenic.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 10:43 am
Scrat, not McG. as much as we may agree on some things, we are not really the same person.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 11:07 am
LOL sorry McG. I corrected it even before your post....see? No edit.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 11:26 am
Well, ok then! It's good company though.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 01:58 pm
McG is not me, but that doesn't stop him from wishing he were, now and again. Cool
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 04:03 pm
scrat-the point is that tHE BUSH ADMINISTRATION FINALLY DID PASS THE MCL FOR ARSENIC IN WATER TO AGREE WITH THE VALUE PROPOSED BY BROWNER>
Thats after sizable arm wringing and the resignation of Bush's EPA director
To post a "micronutrient " testimonial is a bit disengenuous. It states that the diet can have as much as 50 micrograms per day. In some areas you can get that dose in one glass of water.
at my home I have a well into limestone. there is a small As component in the water. We use an activated charcoal filter to remove the "micronutrients" that are also carcinogens. If you like As in your diet , you can treat yourself to pieces of soft coal .
There are so many opportunities to get As from natural sources that Id wonder why anyone would take a "supplement"
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 04:34 pm
Farmerman - You seem to think that I take the notion that Bush chose to do it as proof that it was the right thing to do. I do not. Politicians routinely do the wrong thing for political reasons, and Bush is no exception.

You believe the lower standard was appropriate. Perhaps you're right. From what I know about the issue--which may be considerably less than you--I don't believe it was necessary.

And then there's the issue of the cost. Read what Kinsley--no Bush fan--wrote back in 2001...

http://slate.msn.com/id/104250/

Michael Kinsley wrote:
The trouble is that Bush is right about arsenic. How it happened, one can only imagine: Late nights in the White House library. The first lady: "George, are you coming to bed? It's a quarter after 10 already." The president: "Honey, could you bring me that epidemiological study? It's over there on top of my pocket calculator. I think I've figured out where the National Academy of Sciences went wrong." The first lady: "I'm warning you, buster, if this doesn't stop I'm running for the Senate." The president: "Honey, calm down. [Ominous pause.] Have a glass of water."

More likely, Bush stumbled or was blindsided into this heroic and correct application of his own principles. Whatever, 10 parts per billion clearly is over-regulation. As Sebastian Mallaby noted in a Washington Post column last month, the cost of meeting the tougher standard exceeds the likely benefit even by the government's own calculations. Those calculations involve putting a dollar value on each human life likely to be saved and each nonfatal illness likely to be avoided. Your life is worth $6.1 million, you may be glad to hear. And yet your government was willing to stretch (or rather, willing to require local water districts to stretch) and pay $7.5 million to save you from arsenic poisoning.

Why? Because of "unquantifiable" factors. You may well wonder, if your life is quantifiable to the first decimal point, what could be unquantifiable. Also, why even bother with cost-benefit analysis if you're going to set a price on almost everything and then go all Oscar Wilde, declaring that this tells you the value of nothing? These questions are taken up, indirectly, in a study of the Environmental Protection Agency's arsenic analysis sponsored by a respected (and reasonably nonideological) Washington think tank. By the authors' best calculation (which seems reasonable to me), a standard of 10 ppb implies a cost-per-life-saved of more like $65 million. I'm not worth it. Are you?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 05:00 pm
The idea of arsenic in one's drinking water is alarming when one is first presented with the concept. Images of "Arsenic and Old Lace" immediately come to mind. But as we know, there is a trade off between safety and affordability. Most of us accept the risk of an automobile that is less than optimallly safe as opposed to a 100% safe automobile that nobody could afford. Is the presence of a minute amount of arsenic in the drinking water, etc. okay when the alternative is water that costs 1000 fold more than what we are paying now?

The recommended 50 micrograms is a number set by the World Health Organization, and as nearly as I can tell is a rather arbitrary number with no real scientific basis behind it.

Here is a rather good article outlining what a toxic exposure, high exposure, low exposure of arsenic would be. If one accepts the figures produced by this expert, the 50 micrograms might be considered excessively low, but I think most municipalities can live with it.
http://www.nab.usace.army.mil/projects/WashingtonDC/springvalley/arsenic/LammPresentation.pdf
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 05:23 pm
Arsenic values are all over the map in regulating soil cleanup for housing development. I suppose"no cleanup to a national soil standard of 20 ppb' leaves one with a decision. If you have kids you can choose to buy a house there and accept the risk or not.

Risk analyses are cumulative and additive. If we take inventory of the controlable mutagens that we ingest daily, we could easily avoid them by point of use (an industry term, not mine) treatment.

i have one of those Water polishers on the water line from my well. Im not screaming "let the govt clean my water", Im doing it myself.
The science advisory panel brought the As standard to the president under the umbrella of staandards and regulation authority in the Clean Water Act.

public water supplies are, in most cases. less than optimized for safety, there are all sorts of chemical and biological pollutants even after the water is treated. In New Orleans, the water used to be worse after treatment than before, mostly because of treatment with chlorine and the fact that most Aluminum plants are just upstream from Nawlins.

there are a number of cancers like testicular or prostate that are enhanced in occurence when a number of risk factors are brought together(and your genetics are predisposed or your immune system compromised), one of the risk factors is the occurence of arsenic in drinking water.
Yes, its only one factor but it is addresable and , the fact that Bush relented and aallowed the lower MCL to be enacted was a good decision.

Of course , we, of the Democrat persuasion could state that this was one of Bushs flip flops , but I feel that making decisions that force one to abandon a previously held position, based upon latest and best data is, prudent. Its what Id hope a president would do.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 05:39 pm
fox. I read the paper you linked. i agree with him. His daaily dose of 100ppb makes it look like a "sure thing" tha one would get some form of bladder, or other cancer. His point, if you wish to lean on it. Actually establishes a level upon which a negative effect is predictable. what the science advisory panel said was , if we get As from a number of plaaces daily, lets not allow multiple sources of low doses add up to a cumulative effect.

Thats a good paper though, Ive BMed it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2004 11:15 pm
Farmer, that seems reasonable. And I also agree that it is reasonable for anyone, even a president, to change his mind when presented with better information. I only consider changing one's mind for political expediency to be a 'flip flop'. And in truth I wasn't thinking multiple sources in my own theories. So back to the drawing board. I'm rethinking it. Smile
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2004 08:55 am
As David Broder puts it:

Quote:
The factors that make President Bush a vulnerable incumbent have almost nothing to do with his opponent, John F. Kerry. They stem directly from two closely linked, high-stakes policy gambles that Bush chose on his own. Neither has worked out as he hoped.


1. "Mission Accomplished." It wasn't.

2. "We've turned the corner." We haven't.

No amount of cognitive dissonance or slimy lies about John Kerry's Vietnam war record (or as of this morning, voting record) changes the fundamentals.

Iraq and the economy (especially job growth) are doing poorly and Bush is saddled with both issues. He can taunt Kerry all he wants, but the voters know who got us into Iraq and they know whether they have a good job.

I especially appreciate Broder's first line. It's sincere; he's no fan of John Kerry.

Bush's biggest problem is the same problem that's plagued him all his life: George W Bush.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 07:28 pm
I've been waiting three long years to read this article.

Bravo Matthew Yglesias.

This emperor-has-no-clothes thing has been the single most obnoxious thing about the Bush presidency.

He is not smart enough for the job of president and he has been incompetent because of it, over and over again. The man isn't up to the task intellectually and doesn't have the temperament to privately trust someone else (like his father perhaps) to be the arbiter of disagreements among his advisors when he doesn't understand the issues. Neither did he have the experience or instinct to effectively manage people to create consensus on their own.

You could argue that the family values that Yglesias says are not necessary in a president are actually emblematic of other desirable character traits like loyalty or honesty. (I wouldn't.) But what you cannot do is say that intelligence is not an issue and you cannot say that it isn't an issue of primary importance. Obviously, the job of leader of the free world is complicated and one of the requirements is that you be able to understand it.

When Republicans tell me that it doesn't matter if W is intelligent I ask them if they think it matters if a doctor is intelligent or a judge or a general and if they think the job of president requires any less of a brain than those jobs do.

Then I ask them to imagine George W. Bush doing any of them.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 11:05 pm
INstead of an election, lets have Kerry and Bush settle it by a Jeopardy tournament.

Wonder what the point spread would be?
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 07:04 am
Stay tuned for the "yo momma so fat..." contest...
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 09:13 am
Intelligence/knowledge do matter... GW Bush said:
Quote:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2105139/

Clear speech, or clear writing, are direct indicators of clear thinking. Where concepts are grasped and terms are well understood, that is reflected in one's speech. Even as children in elementary school, all, or at least most of us, have had the experience of being able to easily differentiate the knowledgeable teacher from the confused teacher precisely because of their speech.

The quote above, like so many other statements from this man, where he is speaking unrehearsed or off the cuff, reflect such degrees of confusion and lack of an appropriate knowledge-base that we would find such quotes, if they came from a teacher or a newscaster or a friend in conversation, inarguable evidence that the person simply did not know what they were talking about, that they were 'in way over their head'. We'd forgive that in a friend, but likely not in a teacher or a newscaster or a civil engineer where competence matters...where we rely upon competence for the general good.

Where intellectual grasp and ability are so quickly and easily visible even to elementary school children, matters of 'character' are something quite different, and not necessarily obvious at all. We might worry that our children will be charmed by another who though bright, is of low moral character. We worry our children won't be able to identify proper or improper moral positions whereas we don't much worry about them identifying brightness or stupidity and incompetence.

However, where we will all pretty much agree upon which children in an elementary classroom are the bright ones, we'll probably agree much less readily on whom among them are of 'proper character'. Some of us might point to the kids who keep their promises, some of us might point to kids who stand up for other weaker kids, or some might point to those who dress a certain way, or some might point to the kid who hits the books and really tries to understand, or some might point to the child who brings notions of God into a science discussion. The attributes of 'character' are much more definitionally malleable than are the attributes of intellect.

Two of the key problems that so many of us have with GW Bush sit right in the middle of this intellect/character discussion. And they are big problems.

First, intellect and knowledge and competence ARE important. As PD suggests, it is nearly inconvievable that we might demand these attributes in a physician or a teacher but not for the head of a modern state. The common defence of Bush from his supporters is that he has other bright and competent people around him to advise. Yet if he is the final intellect to make a decision from the varying viewpoints and advices advanced to him, what then? Perhaps it is so, as Colin Powell stated to Woodward, that decisions seemed to get made only after Bush met privately with Cheney. That begs the question as to who really is making that final decision...who really is the functioning president.

Second, for many of us, 'character' is evidenced not in unbending ideas or unrelenting denial of errors or mistaken policy directions, what his supporters refer to as 'firmness'. For many of us, these are indictments of character.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 11:17 am
blatham wrote:

Second, for many of us, 'character' is evidenced not in unbending ideas or unrelenting denial of errors or mistaken policy directions, what his supporters refer to as 'firmness'. For many of us, these are indictments of character.


How then would you evaluate Winston Churchill? He was considered an alcohol-sodden, not sufficiently sophisticated anachronism during most of the '30s in Britain. Firm and stubborn too.

A facility with words is often an indicator of intelligence. However just as often it masks quite ordinary minds. Glib is not the same thing as intelligent -- or wise for that matter.

Kerry's words sound better, but they mean less.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 12:05 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
blatham wrote:

Second, for many of us, 'character' is evidenced not in unbending ideas or unrelenting denial of errors or mistaken policy directions, what his supporters refer to as 'firmness'. For many of us, these are indictments of character.


How then would you evaluate Winston Churchill? He was considered an alcohol-sodden, not sufficiently sophisticated anachronism during most of the '30s in Britain. Firm and stubborn too.

A facility with words is often an indicator of intelligence. However just as often it masks quite ordinary minds. Glib is not the same thing as intelligent -- or wise for that matter.

Kerry's words sound better, but they mean less.


You cannot possibly compare these two men credibly, george. You know how educated and intellectually curious regarding the world Churchill always was. I have little interest in how much either man drank or drinks, though we'll note the wonderful anecdotes from Churchill which demonstrated him to be anything but secretive or hypocritical regarding his drinking (Lady..."You, sir, are a drunk". Churchill..."Yes madam, but in the morning I shall be sober and you will be still be ugly".)

Yes, people can be glib of tongue yet not nice people, but I'm speaking of the confused speaker/writer and what lies behind such confused utterances.

How could your last sentence be true? How could a rational and clear statement contain less meaning than a confused statement?
0 Replies
 
 

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