Let's talk about replacing GWBush in 2004.

Scrat
It means that the church or members of any religious persuasion shall not impose their religious tenants upon the nation. It is meant to prevent religious tyranny. Religion has no place in the politics of a secular nation. Particularly one as diverse as ours. It is freedom of and freedom from religion. Have we come full circle? Many left Europe for this new land to escape religious persecution and for religious freedom. The religious right would take that away if they could. I would call that bigotry.

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Quote:

Your claim that these other groups deserve a political voice but the "religious right" does not

scrat

I don't make an argument that political voice ought to be impeded, but rather that political power ought to be, in some cases, actively impeded or even denied. If, for example, a monarchist party arose in canada which held that representative government ought to be replaced by a monarch, I would actively work to deny them power because of the likely consequences to liberty. Same the Taliban. Same the 'religious right'.

So, you see, I'm not saying that the religious right ought to be shut up. I'm saying that these ignorant swine are ignorant swine and dangerous.

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I certainly won't deny the ignorant swine on the right are every bit as dangerous as the ignorant swine on the left.

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timber

This isn't a left/right issue. If a theocratic political force such as who we are talking about arose on the democrat side, it wouldn't be any less dangerous.

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Didn't mean to say it was a Left/Right issue so much ... just that ignorant swine are dangerous, and both camps have 'em aplenty. And that both camps tend to make more of the other camp's ignorant swine than really is there, while pretty much minimalizing their own ignorant swine. Blowing up an abortion clinic is pretty much the same crime as blowing up an SUV dealership. Fortunately, both are on the rare side.

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timberlandko wrote:

Blowing up an abortion clinic is pretty much the same crime as blowing up an SUV dealership.

<frowns>

only if you think women and SUVs are in the same league ...

otherwise, i'm on scrat's side in this argument.

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Hasn't there been rather more violence to abortion clinics and clinicians than SUV dealerships and dealers?

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nimh wrote:

timberlandko wrote:
Blowing up an abortion clinic is pretty much the same crime as blowing up an SUV dealership.

<frowns>

only if you think women and SUVs are in the same league ...

otherwise, i'm on scrat's side in this argument.

Come now, the flip side is babies/gasoline.

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You figure quantification justifies or ameliorates it one way or the other, Soz? I don't. Both are terrorism, plain and simple, whether there's a single incident or a thousand.

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Sure but it makes a difference if you're argueing about what dangers we are facing and what to be particularly wary of ...

You were saying something about "both camps tending to make more of the other camp's ignorant swine than really is there" ... its all too relevant how many swines do how many swineful things, then.

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Yes, as nimh indicates, I was responding to this:

Quote:

Blowing up an abortion clinic is pretty much the same crime as blowing up an SUV dealership. Fortunately, both are on the rare side.

One seems significantly more rare than the other. Especially in terms of human injury.

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Timber, that was funny actually, cause you just said something about how "both camps tend to make more of the other camp's ignorant swine than really is there, while pretty much minimalizing their own ignorant swine" ...

and then went on to do exactly that, by evoking the spectre of what is in fact a rather marginal example of "left-wing" violence (against SUVs), in order to suggest that the suggested example of "right-wing" violence (against abortion clinics) is just as much "on the rare side".

Heh ;-).

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I just don't see it as a matter of degree. I don't argue that abotion clinics, for instance, have come in for more mayhem than have SUV dealerships ... or furriers or lumber mills or whatever. Its still flat out wrong all the way around, regardless who does what why to whom.

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Violence and murder are low-grade forms of political commentary and citizen engagement. OK, that's settled.

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sozobe, There's a BIG difference between dead SUV's and dead doctors at abortion clinics. Atleast, that's what I "see."

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ci

I think soz has that one figured.

But I'm just not buying timber's formulation here. That formulation is...there are instances of misbehavior over here and instances of misbehavior over there, and therefore everything is peachy and fair and nothing to worry about, and that any suggestion to the contrary is mere bias.

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timberlandko wrote:

I just don't see it as a matter of degree. I don't argue that abotion clinics, for instance, have come in for more mayhem than have SUV dealerships ...

Well, you should.

Remind me again how many SUV dealership general managers have been assassinated?

How many dealerships have been fire-bombed, again?

If all that was happening was windows being shot out at clinics you might have something to not argue...

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blatham, I know exactly what sozobe said. I just brought it down to the most elemental level so some "people" will understand. I knew she knew, but there are some on this thread that doesn't seem know how to compare apples and oranges.

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This is the problem with timber's formulation...real differences are denied and made invisible.

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blatham wrote:

This is the problem with timber's formulation...real differences are denied and made invisible.

Not at all. Its simply wrong ... niether more wrong nor less wrong, one way or the other, just absolutely wrong. Wanton asocial criminality is wanton asocial criminality, period, end of comparison, regardless the motivation, zeal, or ideology of the perpetrator. Nothing about it is invisible, nothing about is just peachy. Its evil. reprehensible, and a sad, chilling commentary on what passes among some folk for activism, whatever the cause.

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Let's talk about replacing GWBush in 2004.

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