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Let's talk about replacing GWBush in 2004.

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 09:02 pm
Shocked
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 09:09 pm
What are you rolling your eyes about, Dys?
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 09:10 pm
Scrat wrote:
PD - Don't blame me if you can't read. The law reads explicitly of PRECINCTS, not counties. Your bias and willful ignorance is staggering! I expected more of you, but I suppose that was my error. In the end, you're just Tartarin with different plumbing.

Are you arguing that the initial recount of Gore's cherry-picked three PRECINCTS revealed an "error likely to effect the outcome"? If you are, then show me the numbers. If not, then suck it up and admit you were wrong, because THAT IS THE STANDARD THE LAW SETS FOR ALLOWING A FULL STATE-WIDE MANUAL RECOUNT.


If it says what you think it says, THEN CITE IT.

Paste it in, right here.

You haven't (after three challenges), because it doesn't.

Your miscomprehension, and arrogance associated with, is truly appalling.

Alas, not unexpected.

Once again (and not for you, Scrat, because you just can't get it):

The FOUR counties Gore had re-counted are/were Broward, Volusia, Miami-Dade, and Palm Beach.

Not three and certainly not precincts.

Nor is there any standard nor requirement for recounting precincts (specifically from your first citation).

Florida state law mandated an automatic recount because of the closeness of the election, and Gore petitioned for an additional recount in the four counties I named.

Now.....it's time for you to PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:06 pm
Quote:
perhaps he was referring to the fact that marriages (= lasting monogamous relationships between a man and a woman) appear to be the best systematic approach we have come up with for the protection and rearing of children. The tribe or society has a legitimate interest in the rearing of its next generation. There are many who are concerned abut the declining effectiveness of the traditional protections society offered for those who undertook to raise children, and who are reluctant to see them trivialized or reduced to something quite different.

Young women today are confronted with difficult choices between career and motherhood. The protections and support we offered them too often came packaged with restrictions on their freedom and individuality. Now, instead of removing only the undesirable parts we appear to be throwing out the whole package. When the day care generation reaches maturity we may find we have made a bad trade.

george

I agree with almost nothing here. What possible evidence could you have that suggests monogomous heterosexual relationships yield better quality children? And what on earth might 'protected' mean, and how would you measure it?

And 'trivialized/reduced'?? And 'day care generation'? Well, the Israelis did ok.

I won't address the tribe interest argument, as Tartarin already has.
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:22 pm
george,

you wrote:
Quote:
Those who advocate alternate forms of 'marriage' are generally quick to claim spousal benefits from their employers and the few remaining government sponsored benefits as well.


Now we know your objection.........is it true? Your concern about same sex marriages is that, as an employer, it will cost you more money? Am I misreading you? As an employer, you may have some statistics you're using to support your assumption that those involved in a same sex relationship will be "quick (quicker than other workers?) to claim spousal benefits," but even if it were true, which I doubt, is it reasonable to tell others how they can live their lives and how they cannot? There are certain up and down sides to owning a business, or living in our society, but we can't really get out of these obligations by simply shifting the down sides off to another who is less likely to be able to manage it. Eventually someone has to pay the price for liberty. I would rather see that price be money than lives.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:38 pm
george, We can apply "best systematic approach" to almost every human endeavor. That doesn't mean we should impose our ideas on others if they do no harm to the society at-large. The guiding principal should be, let people do what will make them happy if they hurt no one else.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:40 pm
In America marriage is a multi million dollar per year industry, an investment that more than likely will fail these days. Sometimes I wonder why gay couples would want the 'right' to fall on the sword. Afterwards, they turn into a multi million dollar industry for attornreys. Sheesh.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:41 pm
yes brand x very true and i think everyone ought to suffer equally.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:53 pm
Brand X, I think your estimate is too low. I think "billions" is more realistic. People should have the 'freedom' to spend their money any way they please - including going to Vegas or Atlantic City. Many have big dreams and play the lotto.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:53 pm
Well I must be on to something good. Both Tart and Blatham have come out swinging.

Firstly, I have nothing against some form of social or even civil/legal formalization of relationships beyond the traditional marriages between a man and a woman. I just do not wish to see it done in a way that further dilutes or reduces the protections society has developed for unions of men and women likely to produce offspring.

I am not particularly interested in the question of whether gay couples can or should do a good job in raising children. Such unions don't produce children, and the main problem, in my view, is in sustaining a structure that will foster the healthy development of mind, body and spirit in the relationships that do produce them. As far as I am concerned that is the only aspect of such relationships in which tribe or society has a legitimate interest. Nothing "soviet-think" in this at all. I am talking about relationships that have evolved in nearly every society of humans known.

There are many reasons to question the effectiveness of day care on a widespread basis, The notion that the Israelis have done it successfully is a fiction left over from the Kibbutzes of the late '50s. This and the image of the sabra girl soldier have somehow lingered long after the kibbutzes themselves have vanished or become summer camps for JAPs from Chicago. (I can tell you from direct experience that the macho chauvinism of the IDF would be considered illegal here. Their girl soldiers serve tea and shuffle papers. If they carry sidearms it is to blow their brains out before the wog gets in their pants.

I have two adult daughters, one an attorney in California and the other still in University. I am surprised to discover that young women today labor under a heavier burden of achievement than I had to face at their age, impressed at how well they cope, and hopeful they won't become bitter at the inequity in the comparable challenges facing young men their age. All I had to do was to be reasonably good at athletics, cope in school, be cool, and occasionally score with girls. They have those things and motherhood too.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:55 pm
george, Some gay women couples have children through artificial insemination.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 11:08 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
george, Some gay women couples have children through artificial insemination.


You are, of course correct. Some heterosexual women are single mothers too - a group that far outnumbers gay parents. However their relative numbers suggest that they are not the best choice for the dominant central tendency around which to build social and civil norms and structures.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 11:12 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Brand X, I think your estimate is too low. I think "billions" is more realistic. People should have the 'freedom' to spend their money any way they please - including going to Vegas or Atlantic City. Many have big dreams and play the lotto.


I think I heard it is 50 billion on marriages, imagine what it is on the divorce side.

I agree, all should have the opportunity to suffer equally.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 11:25 pm
Adults
It's a matter of civil rights and law. Adlts hould be allowed to marry other adults.

This Govt. and others before it have supported and still support many countries that allow poligemy. I have never heard anyone complain about that.

Personally, I don't see why that is illegal in this country. It is being practiced in this country but mostly out of sight. Yes, I realize there are many problems associated with this, however if it was legal, perhaps less problems would be occuring.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 11:39 pm
Quote:
Firstly, I have nothing against some form of social or even civil/legal formalization of relationships beyond the traditional marriages between a man and a woman. I just do not wish to see it done in a way that further dilutes or reduces the protections society has developed for unions of men and women likely to produce offspring.

I am not particularly interested in the question of whether gay couples can or should do a good job in raising children. Such unions don't produce children, and the main problem, in my view, is in sustaining a structure that will foster the healthy development of mind, body and spirit in the relationships that do produce them. As far as I am concerned that is the only aspect of such relationships in which tribe or society has a legitimate interest. Nothing "soviet-think" in this at all. I am talking about relationships that have evolved in nearly every society of humans known.

george

Well, I'd love to see you try and prove 'dilution', or ANY negative consequence to heterosexual unions arising out of the Mass. court decision and gay marriage. And to deny such citizens that inclusion as equals in society, you'd sure better have something other than 'well I figure'. This is prejudice. J'accuse.

Further, any claim you make regarding ubiquity of heterosexual unions across time or cultures is balanced by the same ubiquity of homosexual unions, which are also present in all cultures and times where no social injunction restrains.

And of course, if one defines a 'proper' marriage as one which produces offspring, and 'proper' sexuality as that which results in impregnation, then childless marriages ought to be reduced to civil unions and blowjobs ought to be less common - and I'll fight that one.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 12:05 am
Another one of those "Emotion trumps reason" issues, IMO, all the way around. On that note, I expect the "In-your-face" theatrics of the flamboyant faction among the gay activist community will play right into the opposition agenda, actually harming the cause of integrating gays into Mainstream American Society. I figure that integration will come about, eventually, but only after the lessons learned from the drubbing the gay community is setting itself up for currently have been administered and recognized.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 12:08 am
Blatham,

As I said, I have no objection to homosexual unions or even their formalization in a civil/legal instrument. That is not an issue with me. My only concern is the further dilution of the already excessively diluted structure that compensates and sustains those who, in the main, will produce the next generation of citizens and taxpayers. Among the few remaining elements of this economic structure are features of our tax law, social security system, and practice of spousal benefits in employment. I do note that many, perhaps not all, advocates of homosexual marriage are very quick to claim these benefits.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 12:31 am
George, I think I've identified your problem with this issue; you are making it too personal by your quote "My only concern is...." With the explosion of the world population, your concern about pepetuation of the species is unwarranted - IMHO.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 03:00 am
Meanwhile, happiness about the Bush administration appears to be decreasing even at the Wall Street Journal. (Subscription required for the full article.) My hopes are rising that the grown-ups among American conservatives are waking up.

On November 20, the Wall Street Journal's David Wessel wrote:

We have been here before. Laurence Meyer, a former U.S. Federal Reserve governor and a Democrat, quips that Republicans create deficits then turn the White House over to Democrats to raise taxes, then retake the White House and start all over. "This process does involve an equilibrating mechanism," he says, "but it's more fun to be a Republican."

It's a good line, though not precisely true. President Reagan undid some of his own tax cuts; President George H.W. Bush raised taxes. The second President Bush is different. He has yet to veto a single bill no matter how costly. His Treasury secretary already is talking up next year's tax breaks, these aimed at rewarding Americans who save. This is symptomatic: Lots of economists argue for taxing Americans' savings less and Americans' spending more. But the Bush plan does the first, and ignores the second.

One thing is different now. The chart accompanying this column shows what Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist calls "the mountain moving toward us," the retirement of the baby-boom generation. Today, the cost of Social Security and federal health-insurance programs is about 8% of all the economy produces. Forty years from now, they will take nearly twice that, the CBO guesses. The flat line shows that revenues during the past decade averaged 19% of gross domestic product. Unless politicians find the guts to change benefits, taxes will go up or the rest of the government evaporates. You guess.

There are two competing visions of government. The tax-more and spend-more approach sees bigger government as popular and prudent. The cut-taxes and cut-spending approach sees smaller government as popular and prudent.

Either adds up. A third doesn't: The current approach of cutting taxes and increasing commitments to spend into the future.
0 Replies
 
Suzette
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 04:27 am
I hope all of you have Adobe Acrobate because I hope you will take a peek at this:

http://www.glad.org/Publications/CivilRightProject/OP7-marriagevcu.PDF

After a cursory look, I don't see why marriage is really any more loaded a term than civil union...civil unions still happen in religious settings and can be officiated on by officials of many religions. From the site I just gave, it seems the only differences between civil unions and marriages are the laws and bureaucratic junk whereas the heart of the matter is in fact overcome through a civil union...except internationally, but, hey, I'm speaking Amuricun here!

Please let me know of more really substantive differences.

Also, I do believe the fundamentalist right is going to be passing out voter registrations along with the plate every Sunday...
0 Replies
 
 

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