0
   

Let's talk about replacing GWBush in 2004.

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 12:02 pm
PDiddie
I am against an invasion without the proverbial "smoking gun''. However if one is found IMO we have no choice.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 12:05 pm
au, I'm with you. We can't let other tyrants think they can follow Saddam's pattern of hide and deceit, and let him get away it it while the world tries in every way to give them the opportunity to comply with the UN. c.i.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 12:11 pm
BillW, clever, but not particularly original. Interestingly, I see your parodic reply to my earlier post as indicative of the problems bedeviling The Democrats ... there seems no clear, distinct, alternative argument or proposal offered by the lot. Perhaps once they determine who they choose to rally behind, they may develop an issue to rally around. I submit again that The Democratic Party Position currently is one of obstruction, not construction. It is not enough to block the other team's goals; one must do a bit of scoring oneself to win. With a quarterback, the Dems may find a game plan. At present, they have neither.



timber
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 12:12 pm
trespassers will: accepting that the flogging of dead horses is futile, handing me a saddle to ride it is ludicrius.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 12:18 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
We can't let other tyrants think they can follow Saddam's pattern of hide and deceit, and let him get away it it while the world tries in every way to give them the opportunity to comply with the UN. c.i.


What benefit can come from allowing a regime which for well over a decade has refused to "Get With The Program" more time to "Get With The Program"? Other tyrants notice Saddam's continuing successful avoidance of effective sanction, and act accordingly, assuming they will be themselves able to operate with similar impunity. Some even take advantage of what they rather correctly perceive to be our current distraction to more rapidly advance their own agendas than otherwise would be the case. "Time" is Saddam's only available victory: he must be denied that victory, that others may see intransigence and contempt for International Law as insupportably expensive.



timber
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 12:20 pm
BillW - I am genuinely sorry to learn that you find me so "offensible". I removed the response in question--had hoped to do so before it was seen by anyone--because I realized after sending it that it was something best kept to myself. Not that I'm not entitled to the opinion; I just knew it was too sacred a cow for some to allow me to attack it.

I do find it a bit shocking that you and others would find it so "offensible" that I disagree with you on issues--so "offensible" in fact that you turn it into a personal issue, rather than debating the merits of your position or trouncing my position because you believe it without merit.

Not that it matters, but I can tell you that I have received far more PMs welcoming my presence here than complaining about it. Of course, those who do welcome my presence seem to recognize that what they think of me personally, HAS NO PLACE IN A PUBLIC DISCUSSION.

I never have understood the need some people have to demonize those with whom they disagree. I suppose that's a good thing; that I don't understand it.

Anyhow, feel however you like about me personally, but in the interest of everyone here in A2K, keep it to yourself. Feel free to voice your disagreement with my opinions any time you want. That's what we're here for. Right????
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 12:25 pm
timber, It's because the world and the majority of nations are seeking to resolve this crisis without war. In those terms, 12 years is nothing, because it kept the 'peace.' c.i.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 12:25 pm
<The Democratic Party Position currently is one of obstruction>

With Republicans controlling every single branch of government I fail to see how this excuse for incompetent governing continues to hold water.

I know it would be a lot easier for them if the Dems would just roll over, but they won't. I hope.

And to quote someone who should know: "It would be a lot easier if this were a dictatorship", timber, but it's not. Yet.

Elections are always about the party in power selling 'status quo', "stay the course", etc. And the party out of power always sells the benefit of change.

I'm encouraged by the fact that the Democratic presidential candidate got more votes than his Republican counterpart in the last three elections.

I'm also encouraged by the electorate's sense that balancing power is a good thing, as much as I am convinced that the balance of power is way out of balance right now.

(This is a long way of saying that IMHO the Republicans are going to screw it up, if for no other reason than because they always seem to do so...)
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 01:17 pm
PDiddie, there is probably more core agreement between you and I than yo realize. I would be undismayed were Bush to be replaced by a more broadly able World Leader. Nonetheless, my personal interests are to my mind better served by the agenda of The Republican Party than by that of The Democratic Party... such as that agenda may be. I have great difficulty with much of The Republican Platform. I have greater difficulty with what little I have been able to determine may be the Platform of The Democratic Party. I am incensed by the "Political Correctness" and "Feelgood" causes currently championed by many of leftist bent, and I perceive such goals as they delineate to be short term and of little prospect in resolving issues. I perceive the Democratic Party more prone to treat symptoms as opposed to ferreting out and dealing with the disease. While well intentioned, essentially Democratic Social Programs have proven inefficient, unweildly, and counter productuive ... though to be fair the reasons for failure lie in both Political Partites.

I'm not particularly fond of Bush The Younger. Wolfowitz gives me the creeps, Rumsfeld is way too slick, and Cheney is just plain spooky. They've all read Machiavelli. I'm not sure what The Democrats are reading.



timber
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 01:22 pm
timber says:

Quote:
I'm not sure what The Democrats are reading.


I guess it would be some tripe such as Harry Potter. Besides content, it's a 7 part serial and only the 5th part is coming out in June (that's scary).
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 03:13 pm
BillW, The story unfolding about George's conflict with Saddam should be close to the final pages tomorrow when Colin Powell shares his "intelligence" with the Security Council. c.i.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 03:31 pm
timber says,

Quote:
BillW, clever, but not particularly original.


Not original, but true. The Republicans have always be obstructionists. The Dems learned from Gingrich, DeLay, Hatch, Lott, ad infinitum.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 03:35 pm
c.i., what Colin says tomorrow will be so important because my opinion of him will change if he makes a "Bush" presentation. He will have sold out America in that case!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 03:50 pm
BillW, Different strokes for different folks. IMHO, I doubt very much will change. c.i.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 03:56 pm
We'll see tomorrow c.i. - it is scary!!!!!!!!!
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 04:22 pm
Salon's Michelle Goldberg attended the Conservative Political Action Conference over the weekend:

To attend CPAC is to crash through the looking glass into a world where passionate worship of the president is part of a brave rebellion against government, where Sweden is a hellish dystopia and Tom Daschle a die-hard Marxist. It's to realize that, despite the conservative hold on the White House, the Congress and the Supreme Court and the utter dejection among Democrats, right-wingers still fancy themselves an embattled minority facing an army of wily, ruthless leftists, who they hate with the righteous fury of the downtrodden.

* * *

That may be why there were so many college students in attendance, since university campuses are perhaps the only places left in America where conservatives might legitimately feel marginalized. Many students spoke of being radicalized by the hostility they face as Republicans at liberal schools, much as David Brock did in his book "Blinded by the Right: The Conscience of an Ex-Conservative." Given the p.c. hysteria that has choked the intellectual life of so many institutions, it's likely they really have been mistreated. Still, some of the examples they proffered suggested something rather less than an epidemic of college Stalinism. At the panel on campus liberal bias, for example, Roger Custer of Ithaca College's Young America's Foundation spoke of the oppression he suffered when his group advertised a speech by Pat Buchanan's sister Bay with signs saying, "Feminazis beware: Your Nuremberg has come."

"We received a barrage of criticism," Custer said indignantly. "Leftists said they felt physically threatened."

* * *

Rev. Lou Sheldon, the founder of the Traditional Values Coalition and sworn enemy of homosexuality, put it best. Asked if Bush was in sync with his agenda, he replied, "George Bush is our agenda!"

But Sheldon, a plump, pink man with pale blue eyes, wasn't out celebrating the Bush presidency. Instead, the man who has pledged "open warfare" against all things gay, stood in the exhibitors hall before a makeshift carnival game called "Tip a Troll," in which players were invited to throw gray beanbags at toy trolls with the heads of Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Hillary Clinton and Tom Daschle, or trolls holding signs saying, "The Homosexual Agenda," "Roe V. Wade" and "The Liberal Media."

Sheldon, like the rest of the right, isn't letting success distract from a monomaniacal focus on its foes. Indeed, the overwhelming message at CPAC was that it's time to toughen up.


Much more here, but you'll have to look at an advertisement to read it.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Feb, 2003 04:27 pm
For some reason I don't see this "mainstream" Right Wing Conservatism traits exhibiting themselves in a Hillary Clinton convention!

<sigh>
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 03:05 pm
Another hilarious take on the CPAC:

I'm an ordinary middle-aged guy whose idea of a pleasant evening is to get together with a few other America-haters, smoke pot and then talk about how much we love abortion. You know, a typical liberal.

So it was with some hesitancy that I accepted TomPaine.com's assignment to check out the 30th Conservative Political Action Conference in Arlington, Va., last weekend. This is a project of the American Conservative Union and a major gathering of right-wing political operatives and activists. After all, it meant leaving my secular humanist neighborhood and traveling not just to a former Confederate state, but to the Crystal City Marriott -- which just happened to be on Jefferson Davis Highway.

I was immediately stuck in a long, Soviet-style line to wait for my credentials. As I waited I watched women and men grooming themselves and paying off clothiers. The younger men looked like typical state-university students, but as they aged they favored the slightly porky, angry, self-satisfied look popularized by Rush Limbaugh. In any case, the attendees were wholly, completely relentlessly middle-class, and about 97 percent white.


Fighting For Freedoms We Already Have
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 03:42 pm
I see nothing offensive about a group made up of "relentlessly middle-class, and about 97 percent white." It would depend a great deal upon their "agenda." c.i.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Feb, 2003 03:48 pm
You can read about the agenda (and then share your view on it) by clicking on the link at the bottom of my post above, c.i.
0 Replies
 
 

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