Milosevic: West provoked war in Balkans

HofT, your summary with regards to Yugoslavia, FYROM and Greece are accurate. It is nice, albeit rare, to come across someone that knows and cares about the history of our little corner of the world here in the Balkans.

Can you provide one link for one history sites, of all that have such informations?
Because, Yugoslavia very early cut all ties with Stalin and USSR and was never member of Warshaw Bloc, and in following map you can see Balkans in 1917. In section C4 you can see today's Macedonia, as a part of Serbian Kingdom - and Macedonia was also part of Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes in period 1918-1941st, so I really don't have idea where from you got such informations about period after WW2

MAP

Yup. How nice. Bulgarians and Greeks agreeing about Macedonia. What a wonderful world today.
Of course, that's now when big evil USA recognized Macedonia. If geo-political situation changes and Macedonia remains without any support, I wonder how great love between Bulgarians and Greeks will look then.
They will probably hurry to hug each other - fully armed of course, across Macedonia.

....racist comment, coming from a Croatian who admits to a lack of knowledge of Balkan history, is hardly surprising.

Furthermore: the US did not just now "recognize" Macedonia. The country was recognized as soon as it was created after the Yugoslav breakup in the early 1990's; the only thing that's new is the change of name to Macedonia from FYROM.

Aris wrote:

....racist comment, coming from a Croatian who admits to a lack of knowledge of Balkan history, is hardly surprising.

1. I don't see anyone admitting lack of knowledge of Balkan history - only few people with imperialistic desires.

Can you provide one link for one history sites, of all that have such informations?....I really don't have idea where from you got such informations about period after WW2

2. I also see one croatian citizen here, but no Croatians in a way you probably had in mind. I am first citizen of the world, second citizen of Croatian, and as third (equally important) Serb - luckily not one Greeks like you would like (note: I wrote Greeks LIKE YOU)

3. Since your comment is pure racism, even if you consider my comment racistic as well, I don't see why you complain? You should be happy to find another similar mind on A2K (I'm not one though, but that supposed to be your first thought considering your bigoted comment) To be honest, I think problem is in your lack of tolerance, not in mine.

Yup. How nice. Bulgarians and Greeks agreeing about Macedonia. What a wonderful world today.
Of course, that's now when big evil USA recognized Macedonia. If geo-political situation changes and Macedonia remains without any support, I wonder how great love between Bulgarians and Greeks will look then.
They will probably hurry to hug each other - fully armed of course, across Macedonia.

4. It would be really nice to know how come Macedonia is threat and Greece, oh, so, cannot allow such things, while Macedonia is independent country, and Macedonia is NOT threat, and Greece (read: Aris) can allow such things if Macedonia is part of Bulgaria, as HofT's history interpretation suggest?

Perhaps you do not understand the simple fact that by calling itself "Macedonia" the FYROM can then lay claim to Macedonia's history (something they already try to do) and territory some time in the future, both which have always been Greek. And to say that it poses no threat to Greece is besides the point. Greece's borders have shrunk progressively through the centuries. Albania took a chunk of north-western Greece, Yugoslavia took a chunk of northern Greece and Turkey took a chunk of eastern Greece. I suppose we should let neighbouring countries in the Balkans warp and stake claim to our history and territory. Ten, one hundred years down the road, who knows what the mess in the Balkans will be like, and if we let FYROM legitimize its claims to our heritage and names of provinces now, FYROM would simply love to add the province of Macedonia to its territory, jsut like Albania wants to expand its border and absorb what's left of the province of Ipeiros.

You did not answer me what language Alexander The Great spoke, though. The reason I am asking is because most FYROM citizens are trying to lay claim to him as well. In fact, when I lived in Toronto, the Slavs from FYROM would go and lay a wreath on his statue in the Danforth, only to provoke Greeks and to try to claim that part of history as theirs.

MOU - Stalin created the territory subsequently known as the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia pursuant to the Yalta Accords. Bulgaria had supported the Axis powers and was dismembered in 1945 with this particular bit of land going to Yugoslavia - Tito being at the time a close Stalin friend and fellow Communist.

A referendum was held in that territory in 1946 under Stalin's direct supervision, and the inhabitants, ethnic Bulgarians as per their language then and now, "voted" to declare themselves "Macedonians" - failing which trains were standing by to drive them to Siberia.

The parties fought a civil war subsequently while they tried to absorb the Greek province of the same name, a treaty was signed in 1949, but the bloodshed didn't end completely until Stalin's death in 1953.

This is public information easily accessible on all history sites.

I would like for you to explain the "imperialistic desires" accusations.

MyOwnUsername wrote:

2. I also see one croatian citizen here, but no Croatians in a way you probably had in mind. I am first citizen of the world, second citizen of Croatian, and as third (equally important) Serb - luckily not one Greeks like you would like (note: I wrote Greeks LIKE YOU)

Another accusation and personal attack. What's up everybody's ass in here today?

Inform me of what "Greeks like you" means. I take it it is not complimentary.

Point out my "racist comment". YOU obviously made one:

MyOwnUsername wrote:

Yup. How nice. Bulgarians and Greeks agreeing about Macedonia. What a wonderful world today.
Of course, that's now when big evil USA recognized Macedonia. If geo-political situation changes and Macedonia remains without any support, I wonder how great love between Bulgarians and Greeks will look then.
They will probably hurry to hug each other - fully armed of course, across Macedonia.

My comment is not racistic. My comment is a bit clumsy and is not specific enough. That happens sometimes when you assume that people will stick with arguments and will not try to find every single chance to offend.
If you want wider explanation - that comment was sarcastic comment about your posts and opinions in such thread. By your posts Macedonia is clearly Greek, all until HofT (that might be Bulgarian but it's irelevant actually) told something that is opposing my opinion, but IS ALSO OPPOSING YOURS. Then you rushed to greet his opinion, despite the fact that it doesn't have anything to do with claims Greeks have about Macedonia

It's pure and obvius fact that both Greece and Bulgaria are denying Macedonia's right to have its own name, its own flag and even its own history. Also, it's quite logical assumption that they are not loud in saying "Macedonia is actually our territory" only because of current geo-political situation. Therefore, it's quite logical assumption that in some different conditions, Bulgaria and Greece could directly clash over Macedonia (HofT says that in different and milder terms himself).

Your comment was, however, purely racistic. Your comment was that it's not surprising for Croat to make a racistic comment. That, my "friend", is pure racism. Fact that I am not Croat by nationality, and that I am not offended because long time ago I learned not to get offended on internet forums is irelevant.

My comment, with different words was: "Bulgarians and Greece both think that Macedonia is their territory".

Your comment, with just slightly different words and same meaning was: "Croats are racists".

MyOwnUsername wrote:

4. It would be really nice to know how come Macedonia is threat and Greece, oh, so, cannot allow such things, while Macedonia is independent country, and Macedonia is NOT threat, and Greece (read: Aris) can allow such things if Macedonia is part of Bulgaria, as HofT's history interpretation suggest?

I already did so:

Aris wrote:

Perhaps you do not understand the simple fact that by calling itself "Macedonia" the FYROM can then lay claim to Macedonia's history (something they already try to do) and territory some time in the future, both which have always been Greek. And to say that it poses no threat to Greece is besides the point. Greece's borders have shrunk progressively through the centuries. Albania took a chunk of north-western Greece, Yugoslavia took a chunk of northern Greece and Turkey took a chunk of eastern Greece. I suppose we should let neighbouring countries in the Balkans warp and stake claim to our history and territory. Ten, one hundred years down the road, who knows what the mess in the Balkans will be like, and if we let FYROM legitimize its claims to our heritage and names of provinces now, FYROM would simply love to add the province of Macedonia to its territory, jsut like Albania wants to expand its border and absorb what's left of the province of Ipeiros.

You did not answer me what language Alexander The Great spoke, though. The reason I am asking is because most FYROM citizens are trying to lay claim to him as well. In fact, when I lived in Toronto, the Slavs from FYROM would go and lay a wreath on his statue in the Danforth, only to provoke Greeks and to try to claim that part of history as theirs.

No, you didn't. Read my question again. What you answered here is what problems Greece has with independent Macedonia. You didn't answered why Greece would not have such problems if Macedonia becomes Bulgarian province. I'm asking that since you were so happy with HofT's opinion, only because it opposes mine, despite the fact that it opposes yours as well.

HofT - Macedonia was part of Serbia, and then later Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes before WW1 - you admit that yourself. So where is even issue of discussing what was during WW2

If we are to extend such logic then, what is the point of discussing in whose territory FYROM was before WWI when FYROM used to be part of Greece from the dawn of civilization all the way to the 13th century when Serbia occupied it?